Are there any downsides to being a Battalion S2? Any reason it may negatively impact promotion boards in the future? Any negative sentiments?

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 23 Mar 2018 23:08:34 -0400

S2 be, or not S2 be?

After 4 years away from aviation service, I'm very excited to be returning to a flight unit in the Spring. That said, I am also keenly focused on actively managing my military career, and have spent the past few months networking with units across the country to ensure my next role isn't perceived as anything but a professional step forward. This has proven to be challenging after completing an early first command. All mentors have recommended I vie for a primary staff role to avoid going from CO to PL or XO. I've already served and been rated as a BN S3 for 2 years and am inclined to try something new, but some of those same mentors have highlighted that not all staff roles are crated equal. There seems to be some balance one needs to strike between diversity of experience and remaining in the Top 3 (CO/XO/S3) camp as much as possible.

For those of you who have been S2s (or avoided being S2s for a good reason), would love to get your insight. There are idiosyncrasies to the aviation community that I'm specifically leaving out of this conversation to focus on basic officership and career management, but happy to hear from anyone who has specific experience in that world as well. Thanks in advance for the insight!

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 23 at 2018 11:11 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 23 Mar 2018 23:11:38 -0400

Battalion S2 was the best job I ever had, but I was an intel officer. It’s the one job we are all trained to do. As an aviation officer, I’m not sure how that impacts you.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 23 at 2018 11:27 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 23 Mar 2018 23:27:38 -0400

Food for thought. One unique thing about aviation is that you can be aviation and all source intel. That is you can be a 15C. That is the stepping stone to a fixed wing transition if that has any interest for you. I spent several years as a 15C before transitioning to 35E. I did go to the CI course while still a 15C and the transition to MI was not for lack of fighting with the flight surgeon. While I do miss the flying I have now branched cyber warfare thanks to my MI background. Whatever position you take it will be what you make of it.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 23 at 2018 11:53 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 23 Mar 2018 23:53:17 -0400

From the looks of your profile you've had a pretty awesome career! While I've never served as an S2, I wholeheartedly believe that there is no such thing as a bad job in the military, especially if its something that you enjoy. That being said, the advice given by your mentors does have some merit...not all staff roles are created equal. I would only add one very important missing piece, in that the echelon of service is just as important as the role. In the command track you've already served in pivitol roles. Next you need to focus on gaining "Joint" experience. I came to joint staff after serving at the BN level, and I can tell you it's been immensely rewarding. Now, I work in the G3, but as you know the 2 and 3 are intertwined. So if you're considering an intel role, I would greatly suggest working with the J2/G2 (or the 3) to gain a different perspective of the organization.

On a separate but related note, I was reading the National Defense Strategy (summary) today, and it seemed to have a heavy "Joint" focus. In my humble opinion, joint experience is going to be increasingly important in the Army of the future. It would probably be in your best interest to proactively seek out these kinds of roles. Ultimately, you can move up and down through the different echelons to get the experience you need and build the career you desire.

More important than any of this is to find a mentor (sponsor) who understands your unique talents and shares your vision for the future of your career. This person (or people) will be able to help guide you along by actively developing you and creating opportunities for you as you advance in your career.

Response by GySgt Dj B made Mar 24 at 2018 1:13 AM

GySgt Dj B — Sat, 24 Mar 2018 01:13:55 -0400

Do the S2. It will change you and the USAF.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2018 5:16 AM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 24 Mar 2018 05:16:54 -0400

Interesting career so far. If you were the BN S3 as a 1LT, your unit is severely undermanned. Bottom line is that S3 time doesn't count for career progression in the strict sense of it. Neither does that command time you mentioned. You're not a Captain, so it doesn't count as KD. You're not a Major so the S3 time doesn't count as KD. You shouldn't be an S2 because that's an MI position. Go back to the S3 shop or the S4 shop. Get promoted to CPT, go to the AVCCC and then come back to command a company or a troop as a real KD job. The OER you got as a Commander will be thought of as prep time really. To top it all off, all of your LT OERs will be blocked from view once you are promoted to Captain and you start over on the board anyway. Stay out of the S2 job if you can. Get back in the S3 shop or go to another unit.

Response by CPT Gurinder (Gene) Rana made Mar 24 at 2018 10:52 AM

CPT Gurinder (Gene) Rana — Sat, 24 Mar 2018 10:52:34 -0400

As a 1LT, I served in a MAJ/LTC designated post in the UNC in the ROK. This job for me was most fulfilling, but it didn't fall in-line with my career progression chart planned by my Career Managers. As a 1LT, you should concentrate on Company-level positions or assist brigade level jobs. This is until you make CPT. Then, push for Company Command and then, after you get CI trained or 35G trained, branch to MI, if you prefer. This is my two cents. Holding the role of Battalion S3 as a company-grade officer is extremely unusual and I have never experienced it, but that said I have seen a CPT filling the post of Battalion S3. However, CPTs usually hold the post of S3 Air in the normal hierarchy.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Mar 24 at 2018 12:26 PM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Sat, 24 Mar 2018 12:26:52 -0400

I think you should expand your thinking. You have a great military and civilian resume. You should consider being an S4 (Logistics) rather than an S2 (Intelligence). Even in a flying unit, logistics are critical to success. “Leaders win through logistics. Vision, sure. Strategy, yes. But when you go to war, you need to have both toilet paper and bullets at the right place at the right time. In other words, you must win through superior logistics.” – Tom Peters Your success as a Commander was facilitated in some part--perhaps in great part--by good logisticians supporting your operations. I know logistics isn't sexy. As a pilot I confess I looked down on the supply and maintenance officers and units for the first few years of my career. Then I moved up enough in the scheme of military organizations to understand that above the unit of execution level, logistics is often the Commander's biggest concern. As a an air operations staff officer working "above Division Level" in Army terms, I saw commanders spend more time with their "4" than with their "3". Think it over.

On the other hand, if the only choice is to be the S2 above the squadron/company level, then you should take it. Intel is interesting and a critical input to both the 3 and the 4. You will be advising the commander and his/her staff directly, a.k.a. getting face time. I don't see that you have training in the intel area, so there might be a good school in your future also. Be sure to listen to the SNCOs and CWOs in the intel business. Good intel information is based on facts informed by experienced analysis.

Either way, I'm sure you'll do great. Best of luck and let us know what your decision is.

Response by PVT Mark Brown made Mar 24 at 2018 1:07 PM

PVT Mark Brown — Sat, 24 Mar 2018 13:07:12 -0400

My first assignment in Korea in 1968 was Bn S-2. I was E-4 at the time. I learned more about the military and our role in Post-Armistice Korea. I am sure you know far more about the duties of an S-2 officer than I did as an E-4 but our small shop was just the 4 of us, O-2, E-6, E-5 and E-4 (me) and we all worked well together. Our mission was complex and at times a little scary. I loved it, I thought it was the best assignment I had during my entire time in the Army. It seemed to me that the S-2 shop was more involved in the guts of our mission that the S-1, 3 or 4 did (not to decrease the value of each department.) From reading what you had to say, I think you will do well, I think you will enjoy the challenges of S-2.

Response by Maj John Bell made Mar 24 at 2018 8:16 PM

Maj John Bell — Sat, 24 Mar 2018 20:16:34 -0400

It opened some doors for me that would not have been open otherwise.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2018 9:51 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 24 Mar 2018 21:51:18 -0400

Lots of good response here. I commanded a Cavalry Troop as an MI Officer after a successful tour as Squadron S2. As an MI Officer I am sure there were career benefits. As a soldier, the sum total of the experience was an enhanced development of my understanding of all aspects of unit command and staff activities. As the S2 I was very actively involved in the creation of Operations Orders, Frag Orders and a number of other governance documents necessary to effectively operate and run the unit. The S3 allowed me to stand in for him on occasion and the rest of the staff, S1, S3 Air, S4 comprised a team with a shit hot XO that wielded us like a weapon. I remember at CGSC Max Thurman gave us a speech, he recounted several positions he filled that made the crowd audibly groan. Having gotten us to commit ourselves with our opinions, he then shredded us by explaining how importance teamwork was in the Army and that every assignment he had contributed to his ability to be a Four Star General. I never forgot that speech. Though I can understand that roles differ and views of the roles differ, it wasn't about me, it was about what I learned. Right now I am assisting a very inexperienced staff develop and coordinate Corporate standards and policies and often call on every thing I learned from the first day I put the uniform on to help me make recommendations. Whatever job you get, do it well and ask yourself what it means to the unit, the men you serve with, and the Army.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 2 at 2018 12:52 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 Apr 2018 00:52:59 -0400

I was a BDE S2 NCOIC for 3 years in Korea (as a SSG).

1. First thing you need to do is hold your ground. Other Section OICs will outrank you (as was my case). They will tell you that you are responsible for many things...some of which is true and some of which is just completely wrong. Like OPSEC. Me and My OIC fought the OPSEC mission for 6 whole months. In the end they gave it to us anyway...and we said "Rgr!" but it's actually against the regs ...and it's states it right in the the OPSEC Regulation and I had point it out several times.

2. Make security a priority. Security Incidents will make or break your career. And how you manage the security incidents.

3. Keep track of the whole "Detail" and "Additional Duties". Often the Company and BN will want to tack additional duties to staff. Make sure you keep track and go to bat for your soldiers. Make sure the staff is not overly tasked. That was one of the things my OIC told me that he wished he did. He realized later that I spent more 40% of time doing additional tasks outside the S2 lane and that it was impacting the S2 mission.

4. If you do that JOB well it will hep your career. I'm tracking that it's KD position. It will benefit your career.

5. Training. Make sure your staff is well trained. They will be doing most of the intel products for you to brief (or you can have them brief them as well). The best thing for training would be ask around other units and see if they have MTTs coming to conduct training and if you can send a soldier or two. You don't have to wait for official training. Briefing, PowerPoint, Excel, Army writing are actually the tools of the trade for Intel Analysts. There is nothing wrong with spending a few hours a week to make sure your soldiers get trained. Task your NCOs with this task.

6. Don't micromanage. Let your NCOs do their job.

Response by MAJ Theodor Galzerano made Mar 17 at 2019 8:39 PM

MAJ Theodor Galzerano — Sun, 17 Mar 2019 20:39:42 -0400

Join the Air Force. No big games

Response by LtCol Robert Quinter made Mar 19 at 2019 9:25 PM

LtCol Robert Quinter — Tue, 19 Mar 2019 21:25:20 -0400

Can't speak as Army, but if you look at company grade officers as field grade training there is nothing wrong with diversity. That said, as S-2 in USMC Wing, you were more of an advisor to the CO regarding pertinent "stuff" coming over the wires. Some CO's were interested, others didn't care, but I found preparing a verbal "executive brief" for the CO was appreciated when something came across that could bear background.
In combat theater, the 2 generally briefed us on significant intel before launches. During exercises, it is important to "play the game" so that the crews knew what scenario we were operating in. Practice in effectively briefing a group is a skill most company grade don't get to hone often, but are expected to have as field grade.
On a staff, you have the opportunity to demonstrate your effectiveness as a briefer and I had daily "face time" with the CG as a Top Secret Control Officer. Nothing wrong with being a known personality when the CG reviews your fitness reports, plus you can get a lot of informal training if you listen and read between the lines.
Plus you are getting stick time...there is no bad additional duty when you can strap an aircraft on regularly!