Are E-9s needed?

2014-11-05T10:50:34-05:00

I refer to the pay grade instead of rank because I'd like to know how the other services feel regarding their most senior leaders.

When I was a junior soldier, a captain said something to me that I'll never forget. He said sergeants major are useless. He said there is nothing a sergeant major does that a master sergeant can't do.

Fast forward a couple years, and another officer tells me the same thing.

The majority of soldiers from every rank have expressed their discontent with the sergeant major. Most have no clue what he/she does.

It has been my ultimate goal to earn the rank of sergeant major however I now question what that title even means.

*stands at parade rest*

CPT Maurelli posted a Duffel Blog-inspired discussion about the need for sergeants major. Satire aside and EXCLUDING doctrinal answers, I respectfully ask the scariest question of all time: what do you do sergeant major?

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 5 at 2014 11:16 AM

2014-11-05T11:16:29-05:00

I have always thought that also. I am often told that I went to the dark side by becoming an officer or asked why I did it. I plan on making a career in the Army. You really have two career paths. Enlisted or Officer. W's are something like a wild card. At the pinnacle of one you are telling soldiers to wear the right Eye Pro or saying that those boots aren't in reg. At the pinnacle of the other you can be leading a BCT or even a DIV into combat.

I am not trying to degrade any CSM's as they do have their role but I couldn't see myself doing that. They seem to vary wildly. Just as officers. I suppose it would be up to your personal experience.

Response by TSgt Scott Hurley made Nov 5 at 2014 11:20 AM

2014-11-05T11:20:34-05:00

Being from the Air Force, I can understand your concern. Even the AF has the same question asked from time to time. Especially since it seems that there are a lot of Chiefs that seem to do not have jobs.

The following two links give a history of the Sergeant Major rank for the Army at least. For the Marine Corps, the history is a little different but somewhat the same. Also, blame the Marines for having the first Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps senior enlisted member of any service.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergeant_major#History_3

http://www.ncohistory.com/files/SGMhistory.pdf

Sergeant major - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sergeant major is a senior non-commissioned rank or appointment in many militaries around the world. In Commonwealth countries, the various degrees of sergeant major are appointments held by warrant officers. In the United States, there are also various degrees of sergeant major (command sergeant major, sergeant major of the army, sergeant major of Marine Corps), but they are all of the same pay grade.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 5 at 2014 2:30 PM

2014-11-05T14:30:44-05:00

IMHO....I've heard that complaint from many an officer. However, it's usually come from an officer that found themselves on the wrong end of something the E-9 brought to the fore. I've seen E-9's take on issues where officers were on the wrong path and the E-9 saw to it that the correct path was taken. There is a tremendous strength in having an E-9 in the COC to keep all concerned on the correct path. Most E-8/E-7's who attempt to make corrections where needed find themselves up against the wall with the threat of "I write your annual evals!". Having an E-9 eliminates that threat completely.

The flip side of the coin is an E-9 that is a ROAD (Retired On Active Duty) scholar that has no one but themselves and their next golf outing on their mind.

For me, I WANT that E-9 in the command. They bring knowledge, experience and understanding of what it's like for the enlisted - something most officers who go thru the academies don't have a clue about.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 5 at 2014 2:48 PM

2014-11-05T14:48:28-05:00

I don't understand why the Sergeants Major Course is 10 months long. What, after so many years in the military, would require that long of a time to learn?

If the rank and position is redundant, the Army sure spends a lot of time and money training a person for that position.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 5 at 2014 2:51 PM

2014-11-05T14:51:49-05:00

Well first and foremost as a sergeant major your job is to be the senior enlisted advisor to the commander. You give advice on training and administration issues. You support and enforce the commander's vision for the unit. You're [CSM] also the President of the promotion board, even though the commander defers the position to you because technically the commander is the President. And last but not least the sergeant major is in charge of personnel moves within the BN & BDE depending on the level. Other than those three responsiblities that I know of, that's all a sergeant major does.

Response by CSM David Heidke made Nov 5 at 2014 3:14 PM

2014-11-05T15:14:09-05:00

Could a Master Sergeant do my job? Yes, and sometimes they do stand in for me when I'm not around. But they aren't the Senior Enlisted Soldier either. So they could possibly get pushback from other E8s who they don't want to listen to. Normally this isn't the case, but sometimes.

What do we do? In the case of a CSM, we are the Senior Enlisted advisor the the Commander at BN level or above. We interact with the CDR on a regular basis, and take his/her intent to the Soldiers. He mentors the Soldiers in the unit, whether the individual is an Officer or Enlisted. The CSM only works of one person, the Commander.

Part of this 'advice' is how to deal with the Soldiers. Sometimes if a course of action will adversely effect them, I'll advise the Commander. Maybe he will change it, maybe he wont, but I will always tell the Commander what the pulse of his unit is from the Soldier point of view.

We are also the bulldog. We bluster, and direct, and yell sometimes so the Commander doesn't have to. If we show up first it's usually to let you know the Commander is coming and to make corrections so that he/she won't lose it if he/she sees something that annoys them. We make sure the standards are kept.

So, yes, I guess a Master Sergeant could do it... For that matter, if a Private could do some of these things it would make my job a lot easier.

Response by 1SG Steven Stankovich made Nov 5 at 2014 3:23 PM

2014-11-05T15:23:59-05:00

Master Sergeant of the Army...doesn't have the same ring to it... ;)

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 5 at 2014 4:21 PM

2014-11-05T16:21:46-05:00

You can probably ask the same question about every rank. For example, half of the PSG's in my company are SSG's, but we do the same job, so why they got a SFC doing it. Our S3 is a CPT, and he does exactly the same job as any MAJ, so why the S3 OIC is a MAJ at the BN Level? When the Company Commander is on leave, the XO which is usually a 1LT becomes the commander, and he/she does everything in the company.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 5 at 2014 7:48 PM

2014-11-05T19:48:00-05:00

Noncommissioned Officers live and work with their Soldiers everyday and are responsible for their health, welfare and safety.

These section and team leaders ensure that their soldiers meet standards in personal appearance and teach them to maintain and account for their individual and unit equipment and property.

The NCO enforces standards and develops and trains soldiers daily in MOS (Military Occupational Specialty) and unit mission.

Simply Officers make standards NCOs enforce them! (NCO Creed...Backbone of the Army).

However, nowadays we do both when necessary, as for people in general some don't do their jobs and or fail to get mentored or are to stubborn to be mentees.

Response by SGT Richard H. made Nov 5 at 2014 8:17 PM

2014-11-05T20:17:43-05:00

I think not only does the Army need E-9's, but the SMA should be an E-10.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Nov 5 at 2014 9:34 PM

2014-11-05T21:34:06-05:00

Very bold question SSG V. Michelle Woods! I'm on the fence as I have seen some CSMs worth their salt as well as some less than useful ones. The one's I felt did a good job would hold 1SG meetings, E-8 NCO professional development and got involved with running Bn & Bde formations for changes of command and pass in reviews. They treated Os and Es with respect and served as a knowledge base for the unit. Others, well they had their quirks but they all seemed to have one trait in common - they demanded respect solely for their rank and made every effort to debase Os.

Response by CPT Zachary Brooks made Nov 5 at 2014 9:35 PM

2014-11-05T21:35:27-05:00

He has to stand above the E-8s as the senior leader and can be the top enlisted advisor to the Commander.

If they aren't needed, then what is your purpose in life SSG V. Michelle Woods?

Response by CMSgt James Nolan made Nov 5 at 2014 9:47 PM

2014-11-05T21:47:46-05:00

SSG V. Michelle Woods The only appropriate response to that question would go something like this:
SSG Woods: "Sergeant Major, what do you do?"
SGM: "Sergeant Major shit Staff Sergeant. Go away"

Any other response would useless, as by definition, E-9s (pick a service) are the absolute problem solvers, with more clout than any other group-kind of like a mafia, but for good and to ensure that stuff gets done.

They are a necessity. Any career enlisted should strive to get there, very few will.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 5 at 2014 9:59 PM

2014-11-05T21:59:10-05:00

No. We need E-10s! As a martial arts instructor, I am a fan of Student and Master. That's it. But if you ever studied the Social Comparison Theory, you know we need some kind of pecking order to know where we stand in the great scheme of the universe. So we have all kinds of bars and stars and stripes and medals and ribbons...and GOALS so we can perpetually be motivated and gain yet more status to leave others in our dust...like rank, 'cause we can't all be kings or queens. Ok, more of us can be queens these days, but that's not the point.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Nov 5 at 2014 11:45 PM

2014-11-05T23:45:06-05:00

If you are asking where the rank comes from, it is a legacy 'Sargento mayor' which is also where we get the rank of Major. The rank was the second in command to the 'coronel' (see Colonel) and the overall commander of the unit. The Sargento mayor/Major of Sergeants was tasked with commanding the non-noble professional solders...the Sergeants. Later, the Major and Sergeant Major split as those who were noble born would become Majors and those common soldiers raising to their highest rank as Sergeant Major.

So to your original question, in a culture without a noble class 'Are O-4s needed?'

As a direct answer to your question, No, none of us are needed. If we didn't have E-9s, the E-8s would quickly fill the void until SPC Woods :) asked the question, 'Are E-8s needed?' Until PVT Woods finally stopped asking questions and we had a military where privates were the only rank and establishing a complex system of seniority among 'Private Citizens'

Response by SSG Trevor S. made Nov 6 at 2014 1:20 AM

2014-11-06T01:20:14-05:00

A Sergeant Major is the pentacle of Enlisted example. A Sergeant Major will stand at attention and not let CPT Private RallyPoint Member ever ask the question if he or his contemporaries should "salute", he/ she will advise them BEFORE they ask a newbie question. A Sergeant Major will set training goals for individual, squad, and platoon level tasks (command level specific) that support commanders at all level's needs. A Sergeant Major is the light house for Enlisted members, a motivator, an influencer, a Leader.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2014 4:36 AM

2014-11-06T04:36:37-05:00

Of course we do, at least in the Army! Who else is gonna yell at Privates to keep off the grass or berate them for uniform infractions so minute that nobody knew they were in AR 670-1?

*Disclaimer* The above post is purely an attempt at humor. I have nothing but respect for those holding the CSM and SGM ranks. No PVTs, PV2s or PFCs were harmed in the typing of this post.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Nov 6 at 2014 7:44 AM

2014-11-06T07:44:58-05:00

Needed? At least in the AF? probably not since not every squadron gets one. Should we have them? I good E9 can move heaven and earth to get things done using the E9 mafia.

Response by SSG Jason Cherry made Nov 6 at 2014 10:05 AM

2014-11-06T10:05:06-05:00

Absolutely. Every command or staff team at every level needs to have an enlisted advisor. It's actually part of army doctrine. Who else will give voice to the command on your (the Soldier's) behalf?

The officer folks are charged with issuing orders and accomplishing the mission given to them by their commanders. The NCO's are tasked with advising the officers how to best fulfill the mission requirements while maintaining unit morale and welfare.

Think of all of these teams like a driver and a navigator. The officer is the driver, the NCO, the navigator. Officer says we need to get from point A to point B, and the NCO gives the driver the best route to get there, with a secondary and/or tertiary route. It is the officers' decision on what path to take, but they (should) make that decision based on the information the NCO has to offer them. It is the NCO's charge to execute the officers decision and make sure that all the standards are met.

That being said, the NCO usually has more experience upon which the officer should, but not always does, draw from. They can say "Hey sir/ma'am, I have been down all of these roads before, and this is the best one." or "This is the best way to accomplish the mission with what we have." It is the duty of the NCO to not only mentor the Soldiers who serve underneath him/her, but to mentor the officer that they work with, so that all involved can make the best decision in their absence.

I have seen firsthand CSM/SGM's that don't do the busy admin work, and will just wander around harassing people and pretty much being clowns, but that is no different than any other job. Some people just work the system. The vast majority are enormous repositories of information which, if you ask, they will probably blow your mind with the amount of expertise they have to offer you. I haven't run into one yet who has been less than impressed by an up-and-comer asking them for mentorship. That is the kind of CSM/SGM you should want, seek, and eventually, become.

SSG V. Michelle Woods , remember my post about establishing and passing on your own legacy of excellence? It seems this is your path, so be excellent. Each rank and position you move up increases your sphere of influence. Use it, spread your excellence around, be the person someone else wants to emulate. Show us why a senior enlisted advisor is necessary.

Response by SSG Ralph Innes made Nov 6 at 2014 12:44 PM

2014-11-06T12:44:18-05:00

We got a new BN Commander in Vicenza and he made us carry around a book of the imperatives we should all live by. One of the imperatives was "Vulgarity is a sign of indiscipline." While in formation for Battalion PT, CSM Harmon was on the podium with the BN Commander standing next to him, and in referring to that imperative said, "I've been in the Army too goddamn long to follow that one." For that reason alone, I think we need E-9s.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2014 6:20 PM

2014-11-06T18:20:53-05:00

I respect and admire E-9s. I love the prestige and honor that it is. Perhaps those who say they are not needed do not get what it means. SSG V. Michelle Woods CSMs are awesome in my book. PV2 Private RallyPoint Member

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2014 6:26 PM

2014-11-06T18:26:28-05:00

SSG V. Michelle Woods, here's a link with a downloadable .pdf. It was done by CSM-Ret. Daniel K. Elder. It will make for a good read as you will see the role of the Sergeant Major goes far back in history and where it has led up today.

http://www.ncohistory.com/files/SGMhistory.pdf

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2014 6:33 PM

2014-11-06T18:33:33-05:00

SSG V. Michelle Woods Little Anya's fund is still growing and I need to find someone here for Ohio to get her to Disney, Florida. I am determined to make this happen. They all deserve Make-A-Wish....

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2014 7:16 PM

2014-11-06T19:16:52-05:00

Tells soldiers to stay off his/her grass???

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2014 7:29 PM

2014-11-06T19:29:57-05:00

SSG Woods...have you ever been Supernumery of the Guard Mount? Or found a really good Concierge who can get anything done or show you how it's done? In a way that is what a Sgt Major is supposed to be. The most knowledgeable, sharply uniformed, physically fit, epitome of a soldier in your unit that others can aspire to become. Now I can't say I lived up to that every day, but I will lay my achievements against my peers any evening. The trouble is, it's just as tough to find an all-around, all-american staff sergeant as it is to find that quality in a Sgt Major from whence they come. The faster the op tempo, and the more people like you get out, the faster someone who should have never been promoted moves up with less time in grade, less time in service, sometimes just to fill a branch quota and keep the balance sheet full because we definitely need to fill the ranks. Happens during every war. We expand, we contract, good people get hurt in the shuffle and maybe even killed. Some worthy people also get to move up, which is the point. I set my goal like you did and achieved everything I set out to do despite a whole lotta obstacles, including some pretty pathetic human beings senior to me. I resolve not ever to be like them. Thanks to some very enlightened leaders it all came true. And it can come true for you, too. Just keep your expectations realistic; separate SgtMajMan or SgtMajWoman from the myth. Ignore those fellows who've been all that they could be when they left high school. They'll just drag you down. Set your compass to the right thing and go forward. You will stumble. People will fall in your path. Some will also rise to the occasion.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Nov 6 at 2014 8:15 PM

2014-11-06T20:15:58-05:00

Question #1: Why would a Captain be having this conversation with a Jr. Soldier?
Question #2: What would be the purpose of such a statement to a Jr. Soldier or any Soldier for that matter?
Question #C: What would a Captain know about what a CSM really does since one will never work for a Captain?
Question #final: What can a Captain do that a 2LT can't besides get saluted?

Response by LT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2014 9:26 PM

2014-11-06T21:26:02-05:00

Good Master Chiefs are essential to having checks and balances at sea. They are the enlisted sailor's last line of defense from the tyranny of the O-gangers! (A little satirical). In seriousness, they are the ones "allowed" for lack of a better term to question the big two officers on a ship and the enlisted input into policy. It is important that they are E-9s because there is no E-10, so it takes the fear of losing out on advancement out of the equations. Some (myself included) would argue that real military members would never fear for their career over doing the right thing, but it happens. Thinking of the most recent redacted report from USS COWPENS, the CMC absolutely had a direct line to the DESRON CMC that could have prevented the issues from growing nearly as large as they were. All the DHs also had lines (N3, N6, etc...) as well, but may have felt that fear for their career that in my experience the best MCPOs don't have, even the one's quickly risen to the ranks.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2014 12:02 AM

2014-11-07T00:02:47-05:00

They're the Guardians of the Grass!

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Nov 7 at 2014 2:45 AM

2014-11-07T02:45:28-05:00

I was to deploy to Kosovo as an E-8 working as the USNSE, but was promoted to SGM about two months before going. Yes I could have done the job as E-8, but by being promoted to SGM, many more doors were open to me and I had so much more weight behind me in doing my job. As I worked and coordinated with other country's NSEs I had just that much more ability to do my job. I had a BG who was the J3 at the time took great stock in my advice and what I had to say.

The problem may times with Company Grade officers is an E9 has so much more experience and time than they do. Also many times a Company Grade Officer has no idea what an E9 does. I have worked with many Company grade officers on both sides of the fence, those who thought they knew everything and those who knew they didn't know much and was very thankful for my assistance.

Having the ear of the Commander at BN/ BDE level is good. But it also carries great weight! If you as a SGM/CSM are so above you loose touch with the soldier, then you are not doing your job. If you can't take the time to get out there and find the problems and observe and sometimes do the job yourself, then you loose touch with the soldiers. In my career as a SGM I hauled trash, pulled guard duty, sometimes took the position as a grunt in a patrol. Taking care of soldiers is what the rank is about, taking care of them physically, mentally, morally.

Yes the job can be done my an E-8 and before I took the position I had, an MSG was doing the job, but I also feel there is "just that little more" a CSM/SGM brings to the table, or should bring to the table. If he/she isn't bringing that little extra to the table, the they don't understand the job or don't care.

Response by MSG Brian Allen made Nov 7 at 2014 10:44 AM

2014-11-07T10:44:24-05:00

I agree, to a point, CSM Heidke..he described his duties well - but it's everything else an E9 (sic) has to be that makes them valuable. I, as a 1SG, was assigned as a BN CSM as an interim while the first CSL settled and can speak from that POV as I comment.

While a CSM answers to only one person, the commander, he or she works for each and every Enlisted Soldier in that battalion. They are the Enlisted voice in times of advising the commander, the subject matter expert in all things technical, tactical and administrative, the coach, teacher and mentor of the senior NCOs and the shining example of standards for the juniors.

They are omnipresent and every Soldier should know the CSM, not by his or her picture on the chain of command board, but because they've been scuffed up or congratulated by him or her in the past week. The CSM must know the name of every Soldier in the command - Officer and Enlisted - know everything about them, about their families, the way they think, act and behave. After all, how can you speak for the Soldier if you don't know them?

They are the attitude of the battalion, the moral compass and the epitome of the Army values. When something illegal, immoral, unethical or unsafe is about to happen, the first thing to come to a Soldier's mind is the CSM. Not because of repercussions but because he or she has instilled the proper attitude.

So you see.. the CSM is much more than just the Senior Enlisted Advisor.... I believe a better question would be: Have many of the E-9s lost their focus?

Stay frosty....

Response by MAJ Jim Woods made Nov 7 at 2014 10:54 AM

2014-11-07T10:54:13-05:00

I hope none of the E-9's on RP will ever be on your promotion board. LOL.

That said, as a young (20 year old) 2nd Lt reporting for duty to Bn. Hq. in VN, I walked into the Bn. SGM's office and requested an audience with the Bn. Co. as was protocol at that time. The SGM came back out and told me to go on in. I left my cap (baseball at that time) on his desk. When I came back out, I couldn't find it (it was the Airborne BB Cap from Ranger Joe's). I asked the SGM if he had seen it and he pointed to the trash can and said "Is that it?". I said "I must had put it there accidentally" (I said I was young.....not stupid). Years later, I was a Captain commanding an Infantry Officer Basic Company at Ft. Benning and ran into him. He was the Senior SGM for the Infantry School. We had coffee and reminisced about old times including th cap incident.

To this day, I still don't know what they do but I do know not to leave anything on their desk that doesn't belong to them as you might not find it. I think their job is to lead by example and teach young soldiers (Lt's especially) the limits of their authority (it apparently doesn't include E-9's/SGM's).

Response by SSG Jeremy Siebenaller made Nov 7 at 2014 11:07 AM

2014-11-07T11:07:51-05:00

I think IF this question has had to be asked, the officer in question or the soldier in question hasn't had the correct CSM/SGM to lead them. I've had both sides of the aspect. I've literally sat in when my CSM had the FBI come in to their office to arrest them for extortion, and I've also been on the good side and had a CSM ( CSM Private RallyPoint Member ) change the entire way that I led my soldiers! The truth is, That if an officer THINKS that they don't need a CSM or that senior leadership...then they are dead wrong! In my opinion it works both way! The CSM needs commissioned officer just as bad as an officer needs a CSM. If you want TRUE leadership and mentoring...You need to have CSM's in your unit!

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2014 2:06 PM

2014-11-07T14:06:11-05:00

The problem isn’t the rank or pay grade. The problem is that most modern military procedures and doctrine have weakened the power of the senior most enlisted positions and still levies the same amount of responsibility on them. The once feared and most respected rank any branch has been reduced to a stigma of the old grumpy dusty dinosaur that is too often displayed in movies or television.
E9s, when employed appropriately, are truly needed in their respective branches. Not only for the purpose of providing a voice for the Commander to the enlisted, but to be the commander’s ears and eyes for the enlisted. A true Sergeant Major (in reference to Army) will not only enforce the highest levels of discipline but also be the spokesman for the care, training, and treatment of his/her Soldiers. Without this representation at all levels of the military, our greatest assets, the Service members, will be ill represented. When you see an E9 in your branch thank him/her. You will never truly understand the mountain of a job they have till you had to do it yourself.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2014 2:26 PM

2014-11-07T14:26:26-05:00

Every E-9 which means Sergeant Major, and numerous Command Sergeant Major's I met were exceptional which inspires me to continue serve with those great leaders. As we progress through rank we all choose the qualities of those amazing leaders and uphold them.

Response by SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS made Nov 7 at 2014 3:39 PM

2014-11-07T15:39:22-05:00

SSG V. Michelle Woods My encounters with SGMs and CSMs have all been mostly positive. The CSM is first and foremost the person who expresses to the BN CDR, BDE CDR or Group CDR, DIV CG, CORPS CG, and higher the NCO and enlisted perspective and provides counsel to ensure the NCO mission is accomplished. SGMs provide technical expertise in a variety of fields but as a BDE or Group Operations Sergeant their experience and leadership is imperative. A Joint Forces Sergeant Major with significant experience as a BN and BDE CSM was the SME who taught me about the Unit Status Report or USR the functions it serves and why it is of extreme importance as an OPS NCO that the information which is presented in a USR is accurate and timely. That same SGM taught me about being a solid NCO how to deal with problematic Soldiers and Officers in my role as the Senior NCO advisor to the Commander and was the go to NCO for any regulatory questions. MSGs and 1SGs may have the experience, but they don't have that magic title or chevron.

In the British Royal Army (RA) the SGM is a billet and not a rank. The rank of the person who holds the billet is Warrant Officer. This is a unique situation which most American Soldiers would not understand. But look at it like this, in the RA the SGM is a technical expert and advisor to the Commander. In the US Army it is much the same. Our role as NCOs culminates with a career objective of attaining the leadership responsibility inherent in a CSM billet with the technical and tactical proficiency of a SGM.

I find the kind and type of professional experience which is developed in the twenty four to thirty years it typically takes to make SGM or CSM to be of extreme value for more junior NCOs and Officers alike. If nothing else they truly understand how the Army operates, what the NCO supportive function is to officers at all levels of command, and how to most effectively accomplish the leadership responsibilities of a Senior NCO.

This is simply my perspective. It is based on my personal experience. Please don't get me wrong, I have seen the "bad side" of SGMs and CSMs as well, but the good I have seen and the professionalism to which I have been exposed to far outweighs any negative comments I could make. This is a necessary and needed role to ensure the NCO voice has the weight and professionalism of career NCOs who are truly at the top of our sacred role.

Response by SGT Frank Leonardo made Nov 7 at 2014 3:48 PM

2014-11-07T15:48:18-05:00

Yes E-9's are needed in every branch. The way I have seen it they act as the Adviser to those in Officer command. It would seem that on a BN level or higher would not function right with out a E-9. I think a lot of soldiers want to make E-9 for rank and pay but don't have the means to be a good E-9.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2014 7:29 PM

2014-11-07T19:29:24-05:00

Wow...I normally don't respond to discussion board questions, but this one really stood out to me. Do we really need E9's...absolutely "Yes". Many of us owe our careers and the soldiers we became to one or more E9's, I can only speak for myself...but without the guidance and direction from some great E9's I would have never turned out to be the Non-Commissioned Officer I did...to this very day I use the lessons and teaching points taught to me by these great Leaders...the second reason, they are the standard bearers of the history and responsibilities of the NCO/PO Corps, they share and pass the knowledge on...even as a E8 I always looked up to the E9 for guidance and direction. So, from this old Airborne Infantryman...do we need E9's...hell yes, they help shape and guide the future leaders of the organization...

Response by SPC(P) Jay Heenan made Nov 7 at 2014 7:54 PM

2014-11-07T19:54:44-05:00

I find it strange that people would think that this question is 'brave'. I have a couple of very good friends that are a CSM and a SGM respectively (Nope, neither in my CoC, one is retired and one is stationed in a different state). Anyway, as long as you are respectful, I don't see why people are scared of them. There job is to be that person that you don't ever want to be called to the carpet. Why are we conditioned to be scared to talk to senior leaders? Obviously, you aren't going to roll up and chat about what app you want to download, but it should be stressed that if warranted, they should be encouraged to talk to their senior leaders.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2014 10:18 PM

2014-11-07T22:18:28-05:00

Of course Sergeants Major are a very necessary position in all levels at and above the battalion throughout the military... at least until I make the rank. Once I retire we can sit down at have this discussion again.

Response by SGT Michael Glenn made Nov 7 at 2014 10:40 PM

2014-11-07T22:40:23-05:00

I think its just a rank to help pass the time while you wait on retirement, all my 9's were pretty much useless and did nothing but walk around Bn doing the jobs that we Lower NCo's did. Some were cool and some not was an even mix,only had one bad experience with one of them.

Response by PO2 Maxwell Jones made Nov 7 at 2014 11:12 PM

2014-11-07T23:12:02-05:00

Are they needed? Yes and no in my opinion. I did 6 years in the Navy as a nuke, and now I'm doing a very similar job at a nuclear power plant for almost twice what I got paid in the Navy as an E-5. It was pretty common for me to fill in for an E-6 and we often functioned as a division without an E-7,8,9. Can a Chief do the job of a Master Chief? Absolutely. Will the Navy (or any other branch) be able to retain senior enlisted without a pay increase past the annual cost of living raise? Probably not. The rank of E-9 provides more incentive to stay in for some.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2014 10:20 AM

2014-11-08T10:20:57-05:00

From a Navy perspective, the Master Chief provides quite a bit, but the specifics are different, depending on the community and platform.

In Reactor Department, MMCMs (oh, and those other ratings) hold the nuclear side of the Chief's mess together. They provide direction and guidance to a department that has more sailors than many combatant ships. After their RDMC (Reactor Department Master Chief) tour, they often become technical assistants or Div-Os for supporting divisions outside the big five. What they bring to the table that nobody else can, though, is the ability to play the court jester - the one person who can tell truth to the king.

Does that mean it MUST be an E-9? Not really. Hell, most submarines don't even have one. The Chief of the Boat (COB) is usually a Senior Chief (E-9), as is the Engineering Department Master Chief (EDMC) - who is sometimes on his post-COB tour. If there's a Master Chief on a boat, it's often because the EDMC made it during his tour.

On the air side of the house, the guy who runs the maintenance show is the Maintenance Master Chief - it's not bars and oak leafs running things - even on a mighty, mighty CVN, but a guy wearing anchors. Sure, if you got rid of E-9, it would just a senior E-8. And if you got rid of both, it would be a very seasoned Chief... but all you're doing is getting rid of pay grades - not job.

Response by MAJ Ronnie Reams made Nov 8 at 2014 12:06 PM

2014-11-08T12:06:31-05:00

Guess it depends on whether talking about SSMs or CSMs. Lead pix is of a CSM, so
I guess that is what the question is about.

Response by 1SG Ernesto Riverarodriguez made Nov 8 at 2014 12:45 PM

2014-11-08T12:45:04-05:00

its a mystery to me too..after 29 years of service i was trained never to question any leader unless it was an unlawful order, SGM does have a job if you are OPERATIONS S3/G3 HARD WORK.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2014 12:44 PM

2014-11-08T12:44:06-05:00

SSG Woods, Rallypoint is acting up lately and I can't see the other responses. Taking a LONG time to load now days. To your question though, I had the same general impression as a young officer. In general, most of my experiences were bad ones. I met a couple of good S3 SGM's, but I had no idea what they actually did most of the time. It wasn't until I was a Squadron Commander that I truly appreciated the rank. I think the best people to ask are 1SG's. A LT or a CPT and often a Major just don't understand what a SGM or a CSM does most of the time. The S3 and the XO can understand what the Operations SGM does, but often the CSM comes in and out of their daily business without total understanding. For me, my CSM is invaluable. It's amazing how little time a Commander spends with Soldiers. It is unfortunate but true. The Command Sergeant Major at the Squadron level has daily interactions with the 1SG's and can get a feel for the unit, while the Commander's information is often filtered by the officers under his command. I can't tell you about the BDE and DIV level CSM's. I assume it's the same, just a little removed. I'd like to believe that they play a large hand in the professional development of the 1SG's in the Brigade. I'm not sure though. I have trusted my CSM with some very specific areas of responsibility that cross over into both operations and personnel readiness...he's also a Tank Master Gunner and his expertise there is invaluable. He is my sounding board and really the only person I can talk to about things that are chapping my a$$ at any particular moment. Couldn't do without him.

Response by SrA Daniel Hunter made Nov 8 at 2014 1:57 PM

2014-11-08T13:57:20-05:00

Unless we are talking about the Senior Enlisted Adviser, you could ask the O-1's and O-2's in your unit to find the value in an E-9. I agree for the most part an E-8 or even an E-7 could do much of the work of an E-9. It is in their junior officer advisory role that an E-9 has the greatest benefit.

Response by PO3 Anthony Farhner made Nov 8 at 2014 9:18 PM

2014-11-08T21:18:54-05:00

Think about it. E-9's have a diverse background and network just like everyone else. The difference is amount of time in service and are a living link to resources and assets that should not be forgotten. Hell yeah E-9's are needed.

Response by 1SG Nick Baker made Nov 8 at 2014 9:53 PM

2014-11-08T21:53:21-05:00

Michelle,

The military has evolved, but not in every position. The noncommissioned officer stays on the line, in their MOS, for the majority of their career. I served three years outside of an infantry battalion. Two years as a drill sergeant training infantryman and a year in an infantry brigade S-3. In all 18 years out of 20 leading soldiers in light, mechanized, and Bradley units.

Officers do not spend that time in leadership positions. Noncommissioned officers provide their expertise so officers can make the best decisions. Our military is in the same position as post Vietnam. We have a lot of time deployed and not much down or training time.

I think the Army needs to rethink promotions and training. I served in mainly mechanized infantry units, but every CSM we had was light infantry, airborne, or a ranger background. The 1SG were the expertise in the battalion and not the CSM. None of the CSMs were experts in the tactics of that unit. The NCO must be able to execute the plan without an officer, history has many examples.

I would not put much thought on the comments of a green captain. Stay clear of officers and NCO who downgrade positions. Weed them out as you progress.

So Michelle, change the Army.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2014 10:03 PM

2014-11-08T22:03:41-05:00

Absolutely they are needed....it sounds like the officers who made those comments have had too many bad experiences with CSM / SGMs than they have good ones. Although I have had my share of questionable E-9s in my career, I have also had the previledge of serving with some of the best E-9s our military has to offer. The "good" ones can offer wisdom and advise that is meant to guide officers in our decision making, as well as advocate for the benefit of all Soldiers (not just enlisted).

I think a better question might be.....do we need to look at how the services are selecting E-8s to the rank of E-9?

But, in the end, I say YES, without a doubt we need them!

Response by SSgt Gregory Guina made Nov 9 at 2014 3:17 AM

2014-11-09T03:17:45-05:00

Yeah of course a MSG can do what a SGM can do. A Sgt can fill in for a SSgt a SSgt can fill in for a Gunny or in the case of the Army a SFC. Just like the XO can fill in for the CO and on and on.

I think the reason we have the ranks we do is more to reward longevity.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 9 at 2014 3:27 AM

2014-11-09T03:27:12-05:00

What rank is actually needed. seems that the CSM that these officers are complaining about, actually does the job. see, one of his jobs is to train MSG to become the future. So in end, MSG can fill in. But then again, why would you need a Major, ive met some pretty good battle captains, or Colonels, I know some aces at LTC.

the reason is, experience and authority. you can be sharp as all hell. I was usually considered as one of the smartest guys. but I lacked experience. I made7 in 7 years. but I lacked experience. it took a great CSM to mentor me into the leader I am today. I actually care for Soldiers instead of being "balls to the wall - all gun-ho".

he told me that hed been a CSM for 4 years. and that often when I spoke to him, he felt like he needed to be at parade rest. he taught me a lot. he wasn't regarded as one of the best CSM by many of his peers. but he taught me more than all the others combined, at the time.

I feel I am ten times the leader now because of this CSM. and I have continued to grow by learning from all the SGM/CSM that I have contact with. im still a little rough around the edges, but they keep mentoring me and fixing me. in time, I will be able to do this to SFC and MSG out there. there is a need for them. more so than any staff officer (a little defensive) but my opinion. Are there some bad leaders, yes. but there are more good ones.

finally, to these officers. tell them their job is to improve the fox hole. not break down the walls and fill in the sumps. supporting their NCOs would be better than justifying their "unneed" for the grade. the mission is important, but it would never get done without the private. the CSM is there for the private. not for the staff!

Response by 1LT William Clardy made Nov 9 at 2014 10:31 AM

2014-11-09T10:31:24-05:00

SSG V. Michelle Woods, what those officers told you -- that a proficient master sergeant has all the skills a sergeant major has -- may well be true, but you could probably make the same comparison between lieutenant generals and colonels.

The role, and the ability to holistically fulfill that role, is in many ways more important than mastery of individual skills or techniques. Think about what distinguishes a first sergeant from a master sergeant -- and how many master sergeants would be less-than-stellar performers when tasked with wearing a diamond under those chevrons, just as there are a few sergeant majors who will have problems when you put a wreath around their star.

Response by SSG Ed Mikus made Nov 9 at 2014 12:57 PM

2014-11-09T12:57:25-05:00

YES! but there are some who need to move out! i have met many who were there just for the politics, to secure a retirement job, or because they didn't have the skills to hold a job after retirement. Sorry, but they need to go. I have met a lot more who continue to live by and enforce the NCO Creed, the Army Values, and take care of their solders, officers and enlisted alike. We need more of them. I would not reduce their rank. heck, i would like to see a few E10s supporting some senior 4 star commands.

Response by CPO Greg Frazho made Nov 9 at 2014 3:20 PM

2014-11-09T15:20:14-05:00

Short answer to your specific question (Are E-9s needed?): Yes, they are.

Now here's the long answer: By statute, they (E-9s) can make up no more than 1% to, in some cases, 1.25% of the entire enlisted force. That's the vast majority of the U.S. military, the group of people they're charged with representing. And that's the right word: represent.

In the Navy, master chiefs (E-9s) make up the selection boards that advance (or don't advance) the next crop of chief petty officers, senior chief petty officers and master chief petty officers. That is an incredibly complex and important responsibility and it happens once per year per pay grade. In a nutshell, they hand-pick their reliefs, and it is a VERY competitive process.

All that said, what I think you're asking, Staff Sgt. Woods, is this: are COMMAND sergeants major, or in my case, command master chiefs, worth their salt? Again, short answer: yes, aside from the politicians who forget or obscure the fact they came from the lower enlisted echelons like everyone else and still put their BDU/ACU/NWU trousers on one pant-leg at a time like everyone else.

I think your point of view may be jaded by the fact that despite the idea they're supposed to be the commander's right-hand man or woman as it pertains to the enlisted force, some either forget that fact or are perceived to be distant, furtive and/or unapproachable. To be fair about it, some are, particularly some of the graduates of the Senior Enlisted Academy as far as the Navy is concerned. I've never taken well to people who put on airs, and some of them do.

But know this: the day we forget where we come from is the day we cease being relevant. If you think your one God-given job is to fuck with other people 1.) because you can and 2.) because you have nothing better to do, perhaps it's time to drop your retirement papers and seek another line of work. ALL NCOs are charged with enforcing standards, not just those in the highest pay grades of the NCO corps.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 9 at 2014 3:33 PM

2014-11-09T15:33:26-05:00

Someone has to "speak truth to power" and consequences be damned. Must that invariably be the CSM? No not necessarily. In fact one hopes someone else (Bn or BDE XO for example) would be the first to sound any alarms. But I view the CSM as Nathan the prophet who called out King David when all others were mum and cowed.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 9 at 2014 3:38 PM

2014-11-09T15:38:01-05:00

What this question and ensuing debate tell me is we need a much better basic teaching of the roles/responsibilities and functions of the E9.
I have always argued that selection criteria for BDE or DIV level CSM should be more rigorous than for Bn. The Bn CSM makes the same pay as his BDE or DIV counterparts. We need some type of "incentive pay" similar to what is paid to in demand skill sets in medcomm to retain the best. But in many instances I suspect when a soldier pins on his /her CSM rank they figure they are home free and beyond criticism by superiors or peers.
What might happen if Bn CSM all met like the college of cardinals to select who among them would serve in the BDE CSM throne?

Response by PO3 Brendan "Smitty" Smith made Nov 9 at 2014 3:48 PM

2014-11-09T15:48:07-05:00

I've felt that way about a few O-3's I've met in my day too. It doesn't mean the entire pay grade is useless.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 9 at 2014 5:53 PM

2014-11-09T17:53:32-05:00

Of course they matter, they are the senior enlisted advisor at the BN and higher command. They're role is significant to the life, morale, and welfare of the unit; plus they continue to mentor other senior NCOs.

Response by SGT Suraj Dave made Nov 9 at 2014 6:06 PM

2014-11-09T18:06:31-05:00

Theres a lot of things we don't need. The whole Officer/Enlisted System (or as I like to call it the Noble/Peasant system) inst even really required any more in my opinion... but hey it will be kept as "Tradition" until somehow/way/shape/or form the system "Offends" someone so it gets changed...

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 9 at 2014 7:11 PM

2014-11-09T19:11:41-05:00

I don't believe any of this ever happened, this would never have even be uttered regarding a Master Chief or Marine Corps Sergeant Major and I believe it wouldn't against an Army Sergeant Major either. I move to delete the points earned for creating this post. ;-).

Tango!
Doc

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 9 at 2014 7:17 PM

2014-11-09T19:17:03-05:00

My battalion has an E-8 for a CSM. He does just fine. I still have my doubts, given some bad experiences that I have had with both CSMs and CMCs (Command Master Chiefs). I did a deployment once with an SFC who thought that SGMs were the "most dandified" rank in the Army, and of little use for the resources that are expended on their behalf. To be fair, I have had some great CSMs and CMCs. I just haven't decided if the Army resources that I've seen spent on a single SGM is worth the return; SGMs remind me of flag officers, but without the responsibilities of command as such that GO and FOs deal with. I also do not like the Army idea of having SGMs decide command uniform policy, when SGMs cannot enforce such policies amongst officers- I find that irritating.

Response by CMSgt Michael Belanger made Nov 9 at 2014 7:29 PM

2014-11-09T19:29:37-05:00

Not sure about the Army and other Services, but in the Air Force, Chief Master Sergeant's (E-9 rank) is critical to every unit that earns the billet. Chief Master Sergeants make sure the work gets done bottom line. We support our commanders intent and carry out their direction and are a critical part of unit leadership. The Air Force trusts it's Chiefs and allow them to stand side-by-side with officer leaders in making unit decisions. We don't have warrant officers, nor do we need them. The officers role is to set the strategic intent, the Chief's job is to carry that out, and I am proud to be a Retired Chief that did that very well!

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 9 at 2014 7:41 PM

2014-11-09T19:41:20-05:00

Let me answer your question with another question (without really answering the question):
Suppose we got rid of E-9, would E-8 then become useless? If we got rid of E-8, would E-7 then become useless?
That's what I foresee; get rid of E-9 and soldiers would simply see E-8 as useless, and so on. It's a non-answer that amounts to "It's always been that way, no reason to fix it," but serves to highlight the things the people asking the question might not be thinking of.

So I've been in 16 years and I've never questioned the need of the rank of Chief Master Sergeant, or the position that goes with it. There might be a few more E-9s than there need to be, but I recognize the need for the rank.
In the Air Force, the Chief is one of the advocates to the Commander for the enlisted force, usually with a professional development and operational leadership focus (to compliment the First Sergeant's administrative focus). The Chief fulfills this at each level; Squadron, Group, Wing, Major Command. The Chief also holds a functional leadership piece, acting as a representative between the enlisted force and the leadership of the career field.

Response by SFC Mark Gagnon made Nov 9 at 2014 8:29 PM

2014-11-09T20:29:03-05:00

it is quite possible that the CPT said that a Master Sergeant can do everything a CSM can do because he got slammed by the CSM at the last staff call for making a fucked up call that effected the lives and moral of the soldiers in the unit. One of the CSM's duties is to ensure the men and women of the Bn are ready to take on any mission the BN CDR tasks the Co Commanders with. There are plenty of jokes about how a PFC is better than a 2LT, but you will not see any one say that they would let a PFC lead a PLT of Infantry soldiers on a mission. CSM's are revered for their knowledge, wisdom, experience and maturity. Something most CPT's don't have, and will not until they have been in as long as a CSM. Most CSM's are old enough to be the fathers of these CPT's. I say RESPECT YOUR ELDERS!!!!!

Response by LCpl Korey Kelemen made Nov 9 at 2014 9:06 PM

2014-11-09T21:06:55-05:00

The master gunnery sgt is the only e9 I liked seeing, the only time I saw a sgt maj was when I would get njp'd or in the field when they would come to the gun line.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 9 at 2014 10:51 PM

2014-11-09T22:51:42-05:00

I believe that if the rank of E-9 was not needed then the rank would not exist. I know it is hard to see what a SGM does from the outside looking in. However, before I made MSgt I thought all they did was tell people what to do and drink coffee. I have found out though I do more work as a MSgt than I ever did as a E-6 or below. Yes the work is not as physical though it is demanding and requires many hours after everyone else has went home. Therefore; I can only imagine what a E-9 does. It is best to not assume someone is not needed just because you don't see them around much. Many times they are fighting for their people or ensuring they have what they need to complete the mission and without their rank and position it would be difficult to get it done.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 10 at 2014 12:04 AM

2014-11-10T00:04:21-05:00

Yes E9's are definitely needed, especially since I will soon be one. I've noticed there is no other Enlisted Rank like the CSM Rank. I have witnessed them in various situations getting the utmost respect from everyone. I have never witnessed a CSM or SGM be disrespected in any way by anyone. Granted I'm sure it has happened in the history of the Army but those incidents are few and far inbetween. The Army gleans so much knowledge from our SGMs & CSMs, they are a wealth of knowledge and I soak it up every chance I get!!! My CSM knows I will grab him at any moment of any day by any means of communication to ask a question or get his view on situations. I love the wisdom that he shares and all that I have learned from all my previous CSMs/SGMs!! I still reach out to them today and they send me great information!!

Response by COL George Antochy made Nov 10 at 2014 2:05 AM

2014-11-10T02:05:57-05:00

I would definitely disagree with this particular topic. The role of the Command Sergeant Major is to serve as the senior enlisted adviser to the Commander, to serve as the lead to all subordinate NCO's. At times during my career, I sometimes had to walk a fine line with the Sergeant Majors, but the counsel that I have received from them has been priceless. In the Army we count on our Squad Leaders, Platoon Sergeants and First Sergeants to lead the enlisted soldiers while in garrison, care for the Soldiers while they are deployed and to ensure that junior NCO's are trained and nurtured to become effective leaders. They are also invaluable to our junior officers as they develop. E6, E7, E8, and E9's that are not in leadership positions are counted upon to lead their sections and ensure that their subordinates are properly trained and taken care of. I can not see the Army being as effective as it is as an organization with professionals in the E-9 rank.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 10 at 2014 8:18 AM

2014-11-10T08:18:36-05:00

The focus shouldn't be "what does CSM do". The focus needs to be on the process in which and how a soldier get's to the CSM position. A lot of officers and enlisted soldiers think that a CSM is useless and that's because they don't know. The real issue is the caliber of soldier in that position that's all. CSM is needed.

Response by SSG Tim Everett made Nov 10 at 2014 8:47 AM

2014-11-10T08:47:10-05:00

I've absolutely NEVER had a Sergeant Major that I felt was useless, mentally or emotionally detached from my chain of command, or otherwise non-functional. If an O3 captain doesn't understand the value or purpose of a Sergeant Major, he or she has not been paying attention. Those officers are also disrespecting and undermining a service member and I, for one, would immediately consider that officer to be unprofessional and not worth more than the professional courtesies that their rank and/or duty position merits. We've all seen bad soldiers. Every unit has them. There's nothing that says there can't be a bad captain either.

That being said, all of the CSMs here have forgotten one critical part of their billet: keeping soldiers off the grass. :-) (pls don't kill me)

Response by CSM James Winslow made Nov 10 at 2014 12:00 PM

2014-11-10T12:00:23-05:00

Well, lets give an answer to the original question: is the pay grade E-9 needed? No. We should all get the same salary for increasing levels of responsibility. How do you feel about that, getting the same pay as an E-5 for the hours you put in and the schools you attend? (that would be the average).

On to the more important question: is a ranking NCO (one that out ranks the sometimes rebellious 1SG) and an experienced hand at having heard every enlisted bitch/gripe/complaint/stupid idea as an adviser to the Battalion commander an asset? Yes. I have been both, and have advised several O-6s and a multitude of O-5s on how best to approach a task. I have been called on the carpet to answer for my commanders actions. (How could I let this happen?)

Is it important for the commander to have an enlisted "partner in command" to discuss the difficulties of command with? yes. Being in command is a lonely place, and I have seen it almost reduce great officers to tears. Without a partner that can be absolutely trusted for advice and yes, sometimes guidance, our commanders would not be as effective.

Response by TSgt Tim (lj) Littlejohn made Nov 10 at 2014 7:22 PM

2014-11-10T19:22:39-05:00

I retired in 96, unless things have changed a great deal, yes they are needed. Most all of the ones I knew were outstanding,knew what needed to get done and how to get it done, without throwing their rank around!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 11 at 2014 2:35 PM

2014-11-11T14:35:04-05:00

CSMs are mentors and leaders, they have lots of experience and help Officers in better decision making toward the mission and the service men.

Response by SPC Kel Rowland made Nov 12 at 2014 11:41 AM

2014-11-12T11:41:24-05:00

Sergeant Majors ARE their branch, they represent the best of the best...

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 13 at 2014 5:09 AM

2014-11-13T05:09:24-05:00

I really like CSM David Heidke's response. In the Air Foce, the E-9 is the Chief Master Sergeant or Chief. My chief articulated very well the difference between an E-9 and a Chief. He essentially said Chief is all the things that CSM Heidke said. However, an E-9 is just someone collecting a paycheck. Not truly interested in the good discipline of the younger troops, or intervening when intervention is needed. He just wants to do his job and go home. He doesn't like taking into account that he may have to take that midnight call from a younger soldier (or airman, sailor, Marine, guardsman) who has gotten himself into a situation, or that younger troops's supervisor needs advise in helping him deal with that situation, and will do whatever it takes to avoid that call. This is the short summary of what he said, based on that, I would not want an E-9 to go to. I would want to go to a Chief Master Sergeant or a Sergeant Major.

Response by CMDCM Gene Treants made Nov 13 at 2014 10:20 PM

2014-11-13T22:20:05-05:00

Do we need Master Chief Petty Officers in the Navy? Yes, they are the technical experts in their field of knowledge. They not only are the experts, they teach their Sailors how to do their jobs better. They know all about their shop and are experts at making things work throughout the ship.

Do we need Command Master Chief Petty Officers in the Navy? Yes, they are the Command representatives who ensure that Sailors are taken care of and all command policies are correctly interpreted and enforced. The most important role is as the voice of the Sailor to the Commanding Officer, and they make sure that the Chain of Command is listening and active. In addition to their other responsibilities, they also run the Warfare programs for their commands and ensure their Sailors are trained in all aspects of the warfare specialties.

As you can see there are two different types of ways for personnel in the Paygrade of E-9 to serve in the United States Navy. Neither of which is just as an E-9, but as a Sailor working daily to make life better for his/her personnel and the command. So, YES we do need this paygrade and the Navy Needs the Command Master Chief as well as the Technical Master Chief. Both serve the Navy very well.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 14 at 2014 3:43 PM

2014-11-14T15:43:59-05:00

Sergeants Major lead Soldiers, set and enforce standards while at the same time advise Officers (as someone else here elequently wrote). Additionally, Sergeants Major were E8s that stood out among their peers, which stood out among their E7 peers, and so forth. They are the ones that always gave 120% and then some. They live and exude the Army Values and standards. I believe it's rare to find a CSM/SGM that is overly complacent or 'ROAD' as another person wrote. An example of a CSM/SGM is they are the type of Soldier that responds to a question like this during their lunchtime when they should be shuffling through the paperwork in their 'in box' that concerns Soldiers within their unit; not during their work time or 'smoke break'. Finally, yes, someone else could, should, and does do parts of my job; all Soldiers should lead Soldiers, enforce the standard, and get stuff done to help support all the Leaders in your unit/installation.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 14 at 2014 10:24 PM

2014-11-14T22:24:37-05:00

SSG Woods I have seen three CSM's in my unit. Since I got to my unit in 2011, I have learned a lot from my CSM's most importantly to always listen and learn from them all that I can good and bad, I just won't do the things I saw as bad. I had one our BN CSM while at the cursed JRTC, where no phone signal works. One night I was heading from dfac with food for the night shift I worked with our CSM came by asking if I had talked to family when I said yes he said which sticks to me today to always do the same "That's good Friar, but if you aren't able to and you need to feel free to find me I'll let you use mine anytime." I still remember that because The BN CSM was always willing to talk to even the lowest new guy or anyone on extra duty or anything to make them feel better.

So my answer to the question is yes I think E-9's are needed not only to make the rules and command enlisted and officers but to also show even new soldiers they are there to help them no matter what if an issue arises.

Response by LTC Paul Heinlein made Nov 15 at 2014 7:07 PM

2014-11-15T19:07:35-05:00

SSG V. Michelle Woods,

I will delay my response to your question until you have been a MSG for a few years, Then I will answer your question with a question,

Are SGM/ CSMs needed?

:)

Response by SA Harold Hansmann made Nov 16 at 2014 11:55 AM

2014-11-16T11:55:34-05:00

Ok a chief is E7, senior chief is E8, and a master chief is E9. So what rank is the command master chief ?

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 14 at 2015 1:46 AM

2015-09-14T01:46:54-04:00

From the 'Air Force' side - this is why they exist:
When Congress authorized the creation of two new senior enlisted ranks in each of the five services in 1958, Air Force officials privately concluded that these two new "super grades" of Senior Master Sergeant and Chief Master Sergeant could fill all Air Force needs then performed at the warrant officer level. The USAF inherited warrant officer ranks from the Army at its inception in 1947, but their place in the Air Force structure was never made clear. Although this was not publicly acknowledged until years later. The Air Force stopped appointing warrant officers in 1959, the same year the first promotions were made to the new top enlisted grade, Chief Master Sergeant. Most of the existing Air Force warrant officers entered the commissioned officer ranks during the 1960s, but tiny numbers continued to exist for the next 21 years. The Air Force warrant officer ranks, while still authorized by law, are not used.

Response by LTC Thomas Tennant made Mar 21 at 2016 11:05 AM

2016-03-21T11:05:40-04:00

As a former BC (3x in fact) my CSMs and Ops SGM were my right arms. My command philosophy was he/she was my eyes and ears and normally was where I was not. That is not to say we did not sync schedules with the XO & S3 (and Ops MSG) but we were everywhere. When combined with a strong XO, I was sure my command and junior officers & NCOs were getting the mentoring and guidance we need to succeed. When making major decisions, the collective perspectives of my E8-E9s and "seasoned" officers made all the deference between success and failure. My motto, "Good NCOs Prevent Officer Harry-Kari." I am thankful for them because I never had to fall on my sword.

Response by MAJ R. Andrew Hoskinson made Apr 16 at 2016 11:18 AM

2016-04-16T11:18:45-04:00

E-9s were created in 1958 when Congress authorized the E-9 pay grade (P.L. 85-422, 72 Stat. 122). so we won World War II, our last great victory in a war, without having E-9s. On that alone, I'd say the answer is a resounding "No."

Response by MSG Dan Castaneda made Sep 8 at 2016 9:50 PM

2016-09-08T21:50:01-04:00

Your "buddy" the Captain is an idiot.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Jan 25 at 2018 8:21 PM

2018-01-25T20:21:07-05:00

He (CSM) is the top enlisted advisor to his commander- he serves as the enlisted voice to the commander and as the eyes and ears of the commander. He can and should bring problems to the commander concerning subordinate commanders. A SGM is the top supervisor of a shop or section- he is the fountain of all knowledge on the section. He runs TOC's etc., he advises the commander on staff operations, etc. A good one works his/her ass off, a bad one ROAD!

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Jan 25 at 2018 9:05 PM

2018-01-25T21:05:32-05:00

E-9s threw their men under the bus to become management. Guess What, you are not officers and they don't want you. I wrestled with this when I was offered a commission. I didn't have the decoder ring, I didn't know the secret handshake.

Response by SSG Dale London made Jan 25 at 2018 9:45 PM

2018-01-25T21:45:25-05:00

The E-9's role is not well understood because most people never make it there. I didn't figure it out until I became a chaplain and then it was clear: the E-9 bridges the gap between the enlisted ranks and the senior staff officers/CO. A First Sergeant or Senior Chief does much the same at Company/Division level but the CSM/CMC has the unenviable task of trying to communicate to an O-6 what is going on in an E-1's head and vice versa -- not an easy job but an absolutely indispensable one.
The E-9 possesses the moral and military authority, and commands the requisite respect from both enlisted and officer alike to give him even greater gravitas that the company commander. The Command Sergeant Major, just like the Command Master Chief is the steel in the spine of the NCO support chain. They are also the foundation of the glue that holds the whole unit together. You can have a crap officer in command but as long as your CSM is solid everything will probably be okay.
Are E-9's needed? Just try and run the military without them!