And yet another shooting in Oregon

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 10 Jun 2014 13:09:33 -0400

When will we learn? What's it going to take? Lots of great comments on several different threads but many on both sides miss the issue. Gun control is not about guns, it's ultimately about controlling the populace. If this is not true then why is there no cry for controlling bats, knives, bathtubs, cars, etc. All of these items have been used to commit violent acts. Many who advocate for stricter gun laws don't understand it is the individual who conducts bad behavior. It is not the inanimate object that we should be blaming. Each person has the free will to make good or bad decisions.

This whole thing of the 2A applying only to the militia is false. Just to clarify, the 2A is as follows: “A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed”. Many don’t understand but this is a three part statement. First, “A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state,…” refers to the collective nominative absolute of the people to organize in order to defend themselves from a tyrannical government. This is quantified by the second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence as well as the Preamble to the Constitution. Second, “…the right of the people to keep and bear arms…” refers to the individual, God given, right of each person to possess any type of armament as so desired. This is further strengthened by the 1A, the 4A, the 9A and the 10A, all of which specifically refer to “the people” as individuals not as a total collective. Third, “…shall not be infringed” refers to the absolute limitation of the Federal Government’s ability to restrict the rights of the people.

Now, many say a variety of different things to include “But we need to restrict these assault weapons/rifles” or, “There’s no need for you to have a machine gun” or, my favorite, “The founding fathers did not intend the 2A to protect the right to have a machine gun, etc”. The term “assault weapon” is a misnomer and an intentional distraction. The term is a deceptive, made-up political term designed to demonize and elicit fear in those who don’t understand firearms. The next two can be summed up easily. If the founding fathers were not smart enough to anticipate “machine guns, rocket launchers, etc” as the technological advancements of arms, then they would not have been smart enough to anticipate typewriters, computers, the internet, TVs, radios, automobiles, etc and these must be restricted as well. Regardless of whether someone believes people don’t NEED something is not for them to say. For example, why would you need a vehicle capable of going 100 MPH? There’s no need for that, right? So let’s restrict cars. In fact, let’s make ALL cars able to go only up to 25 MPH in order for everyone to be safe. After all, there would be less traffic tickets and there would be less accidents. Right? Sounds stupid, doesn’t it? Why is it if someone gets a Corvette (as an example), drives it at 130 MPH down the highway and gets a speeding ticket, we hold the driver accountable for their reckless behavior? Why don’t we ban the cars? It’s the same thing with any type of armament. It is NOT the inanimate object that deserves the blame. We must hold the individual responsible for their actions.

Lastly, many call for tougher rules as if criminals are going to obey these new rules. Gun control laws do only one thing: prevent law-abiding citizens from obtaining a firearm in order to defend themselves. Prove me wrong. There are plenty of examples but I’ll highlight a few specific ones like the recent Sandy Hook incident, Columbine and Jonesboro. All of the perpetrators ILLEGALLY obtained the firearms they misused in their crimes. Over 40 laws were broken in Sandy Hook where firearms were heavily restricted in the first place. No additional restrictive laws would have helped. Look at all the high crime areas in the country like Chicago, D.C., NY, etc. They all have extremely restrictive firearm laws yet they have a higher rate of violence than less restrictive localities. Why is that? Over 50K various gun laws throughout the years never stopped Charles Whitman, Carl Brown, Abdelkrim Belachheb, James Huberty, Patrick Sherrill, William Cruse, Richard Farley, Patrick Purdy, Joseph Wesbecker, James Pough, George Hennard, Gang Lu, Thomas McIlvane, Eric Houston, John Miller, Gian Ferri, Kenneth French, Colin Ferguson, Nathan Dunlap, Dean Mellberg, James Simpson, Roland Smith, Clifton McCree, Arthur Wise, Arturo Torres, Matthew Beck, Mitchell Johnson, Andrew Golden, Kipland Kinkel, Eric Harris, Dylan Klebold, Mark Barton, Larry Ashbrook, Byran Uyesugi, Silvio Leyva, Michael McDermott, William Baker, Douglas Williams, Nathan Gale, Terry Ratzmann, Jeffrey Weise, Jennifer Marco, Kyle Huff, Charles Roberts, Sulejman Talovia, Seung-Hui Cho, Tyler Peterson, Robert Hawkins, Charles Thornton, Steven Kazmierczak, Wesley Higdon, Robert Stewart, Jiverly Wong, Nidal Hasan, Maurice Clemmons, Omar Thornton, Jared Loughner, Eduardo Sencion, Scott Dekraai, One Goh, Ian Stawicki, James Holmes, Wade Page. Total murdered or injured: over 952 INNOCENT people. Prove to me that additional laws would have prevented ANY of these crimes. You can’t because it is practically impossible to prevent someone from committing a crime. Think about it. THEY are making a CHOICE to commit a crime. What we can do though is STOP that person from FURTHERING their crime.

All laws pertaining to any restriction of firearms are wholly unconstitutional, to include the restrictions on military bases. We all have the free will to make our own decisions but we also must be willing to accept responsibility for those choices. In the end, all of our rights are God given and can’t be taken away by anyone else, but they CAN be infringed upon. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. It is YOUR decision to seek and protect each one of those for yourself and your family. Don’t restrict others because of your personal fear. Are you willing to bet YOUR life, and the lives of YOUR family, that the government WILL protect you? Are you truly willing to turn over that responsibility to someone else instead of YOU?

http://news.yahoo.com/reports-shots-fired-oregon-high-school-media-160613532.html

Shots fired at Reynolds High School in Troutdale, Ore.

A person suspected of opening fire at an Oregon high school north of Portland on Tuesday has been confirmed to have been killed, CNN reported, quoting the Multnomah County Sheriff's Department. The school, Reynolds High School in Troutdale, was on lockdown following the shooting as police responded. Police could not immediately be reached to confirm the report. (Reporting by Shelby Sebens in Portland; Writing by Cynthia Johnston; Editing by...

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 10 at 2014 1:26 PM

2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 10 Jun 2014 13:26:34 -0400

SSG,
I think everyone uses these mass killings for their own.
1. Guns rights/control activists will use it to argue their need for more/less guns.
2. Mental health professionals will use it to argue for more need for identifying and preventing the psychological disorders that cause them (I might fall into this department admittedly)
3. Media uses it for attention because the sensationalism draws a tremendous amount of attention.

I do fear that giving these killings so much attention do result in copycats (as has been observed in a number of cases where media promotes behavior; Gladwell's Tipping Point expands on this nicely). Hopefully this trend does not continue and we are able to do what is necessary to prevent them.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 10 at 2014 1:29 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 10 Jun 2014 13:29:37 -0400

I find all of this so fishie, just this pass year a lone we have had alot of shootings. These shootings started when the government wanted gun control. I have never heard of so many until the government started talking gun control. I feel the bugets for the mental hospitals are lacking, and the ability of parents and local people teaching safety and getting envoled. I mean now a days you do not hear of police men talking at local school and even firefigthers going there to even teach stop drop and roll. Bigger imvolement of government is not the answer, the backgound checks can only go so far, if someone has never been to the mental hospital for anything how is the background check going to catch this problem. Need to arm these teachers and stop gun free zones, becuase crimals never obey any law in the first place why would they start now!

Response by LCpl Steve Wininger made Jun 10 at 2014 1:29 PM

LCpl Steve Wininger — Tue, 10 Jun 2014 13:29:53 -0400

That is the best explanation of the second amendment I have ever read SSG Redondo. I agree with everything you said. You are right, too many take the Constitution out of context. It seems that in this day of violence, people only want to pick and choose certain parts of the Constitution to make their claim. In my logic class that was referred to as a fallacy of suppressed evidence. The preamble to the Constitution reinforces the intentions of the Bill of Rights.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 10 at 2014 1:35 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 10 Jun 2014 13:35:35 -0400

It seems like you have summarized all of the most popular rhetoric in favor of gun rights in this one post. I agree with the rhetoric and I am 'molon labe' all the way.

That being said, there is still a pressing issue in our country. Young men are seeking out ways to injure and kill their peers. You and I agree it is not the guns causing this, but I would like to discuss what is causing it.
I have my ideas, but they are just ideas. I lack convincing evidence to know if my ideas are correct or not. I would also like to hear other people's input. Its frustrating to hear about these stories which undermine our security and then simply revisit the same argument about gun control versus our inalienable right to maintain the ability to forcibly prevent tyranny.

Response by Cpl Brett Wagner made Jun 10 at 2014 1:41 PM

Cpl Brett Wagner — Tue, 10 Jun 2014 13:41:01 -0400

SSG Redondo - You could not be more correct. This anti-gun movement is to disarm the populace so we can be more easily controlled. A man with a gun is a citizen, a man without a gun is a subject. What about cars? Cars kill more people than guns do. How many lives are saved each year by someone having a gun? There was a country where only police and military had guns it was called Germany 1930s.

Response by PO1 John Y. made Jun 10 at 2014 3:16 PM

PO1 John Y. — Tue, 10 Jun 2014 15:16:10 -0400

Well said!! And I couldn't agree with you more.

Response by CPT Jacob Swartout made Jun 10 at 2014 7:55 PM

CPT Jacob Swartout — Tue, 10 Jun 2014 19:55:38 -0400

This is bad news because I have family members still in high school in Oregon. I remember the one in 1999 at Thurston HS and I learned of it while I the field at Ft Carson. The kid who killed his parents the day prior is serving a 111 yr sentence. He then went to school the next day to shoot 30+ students and killing at least 3 that year. His mother was my former Spanish teacher at Springfield HS which is located on the other side of town. No kid should have to go to school in fear of shootings happening.

Response by SSG Trevor S. made Jun 11 at 2014 2:02 AM

SSG Trevor S. — Wed, 11 Jun 2014 02:02:35 -0400

As an observation for those who want an actual solution instead of a grand stand, stop threatening those who abide by laws with more laws, stop with the name calling. Start with an actual open idea forum and accept that people from other political leanings may actually have good ideas sometimes.

SSG Redondo, good post.

Response by SSG Daniel Rosploch made Jun 11 at 2014 10:47 AM

SSG Daniel Rosploch — Wed, 11 Jun 2014 10:47:34 -0400

Excellent explanation of the second amendment. The answer to your question though is not so easy. I'll give my opinion and see how many people I can piss off with it....

1) Punishment for gun owners who have their guns stolen/taken/borrowed and used in a crime on a conditional basis depending on how the perpetrator gained access to said firearms. I will teach my kids to shoot, they will NEVER touch my guns without my express permission, which means I have to lock them up. I would do the same with my car. If my kids joy ride my car into a family minivan, I am responsible for said kids and their actions....hence I pay the price. The intent is to create more responsible gun owners. Its entirely stupid in my opinion to hang your guns on your wall like trophies if you have kids. You deserve to have them stolen. In the military, we secure our weapons at all times.

2) A functioning mental healthcare system that has the ability to properly flag/unflag individuals deemed unfit/fit for firearm ownership/drivers license/anything dangerous to others. It would need to have checks and balances to allow appeals and expiration dates and to ensure that a previous finding of unfitness will not hamper an individual after being found fit later on.

3) Mandatory firearms safety course for all FIRST-TIME buyers. There is currently no system for ensuring people are getting the proper education on firearms safety. Right now, we rely on current gun owners to teach future gun owners and people are slipping through the cracks having no sense of trigger finger awareness/point at what you want to kill/securing firearms from children.

4) Allow open/concealed carry in all states and build a system to allow individuals to carry on school/government property. More trained individuals with guns will deter crime better than more laws and more cops.

I'm sure I could come up with more. My intent would be to revamp the entire system rather than adding/removing laws. I can compare our gun law system to the IRS tax code. Its a nightmare currently. I do not believe in taking away gun rights but you seriously cannot justify a gun free-for-all either. There are some people who just shouldn't have guns/cars/freedom. But determining how to identify those individuals is not as easy.

Response by GySgt William Hardy made Jun 11 at 2014 12:53 PM

GySgt William Hardy — Wed, 11 Jun 2014 12:53:09 -0400

The shootings are a sign of a sick society. Even if we had no guns, the people who perpetrate such crimes would find another means of raising havoc among the targeted population. Knifes and bombs as in recent incidents comes to mind. It's the person who kills, not the weapon used.

One of the differences between now and "back then" is the media. Paul Harvey did a bit about a school bombing and the rest of the story was that it happened back during the Depression. Few people heard of it because it happened in a remote area and communications then isn't what it is now. Today we have instant news coverage and competition between networks makes them go over things in details. It stirs the emotions and creates copy cats.

People who are anti-gun use these episodes as excuses for ranting their rhetoric about how dangerous guns are, but the fact of the matter is....
Do the math yourself...
Drunk drivers kill more people than guns.
The number of people killed by "crazies" is very small compared to drunk driving or any other form of killing.
When are they going out outlaw cars due to people killed by drunk drivers. As you know, it would be hard to kill someone if you can't drive. It must be the car's fault.
Are we going to outlaw bricks, knives, stones, pipes, bats, etc?
When a certain religious cult drank poisoned drinks, they blamed the leader, not the poison or the beverage company.

When are these anti-gun people going to look at what they are saying and realize the make no sense?

This is a case of calling a spade a spade. Put the blame where it belongs.

(PS - For those of you think that calling a spade a spade is racial, it is not. It goes back to the days when people would call any kind of digging tool that looked like a shovel a shovel when it was indeed a spade. So it meant calling it what it is...A spade is a spade not a shovel.)

A major point is if we let the 2nd Amendment get changed, where does it stop. Will they try to change the 1st Amendment next. The Bill of Rights was put there because our Fore Fathers felt not enough emphasis was placed on our personal rights. No one today has the right to change those right. It defines us as a people and as a nation. Leave all of the Bill of Rights alone.

Response by SPC Randall Davis made Jun 11 at 2014 3:29 PM

SPC Randall Davis — Wed, 11 Jun 2014 15:29:15 -0400

We have a Societal problem with all these school shootings. Have you noticed these shootings are happening in mostly Suburban locations, not in crime ridden, gang infested, inner city schools? Most if not all of the shooters are white, from "good families", and it always seems to come out of nowhere? What ever happenned to teenagers just settling differences with a good old fashioned fist fight? Nothing wrong with a bloody nose? Before joining the Military I served almost 10 years in Law Enforcement, working neighborhoods the TV show COPS refused to film in. Just an observation, my 2 cents, we've got this gaming generation that plays the "active shooter" scenario games, Grand Theft Auto, and the like. Before you young bucks blast me for blaming games, just take a moment and really look at these games. They simulate 1st person, point of view shooting. They do it almost too well, and these young men have that 1% stupid genetic fluke that tells there brain to act this out. I've observed this trend with our Country being paved with Suburbs full of helicopter parents and soccer moms. Issue #1 Graduation for Kindergarten, WTF? This begins the indoctrination, there should be no special ceremony for basic life expectations. They include cap and gowns plus graduation cakes, and it continues on and on. It used to be a NORMAL EXPECTATION that you can go from kindergarten into the 1st Grade, no big deal. This mentality of not wanting to have a kid's feelings hurt leads to these Teenagers and 20 somethings that don't have the Life adapting skills to deal with Failure and adversity. Life's not always fair and what we're seeing now is this soft generation that doesn't know how to deal with Life's challenges, disappointments and setbacks. I know not every young white male is like this but there is a common thread that's pushed right now of materialism, pop culture Idolism, and entertainment driven crap. I was a teenager with a gun rack with 4 rifles and a shotgun, no M4 but I got one as an Adult. I never once thought about settling a score at school by taking my 12GA. to school with me. There will be fingerpointing forever but for now the Gun Control needs to start in the homes. Responsible firearm ownership and perhaps some honest to God talking with our children, not guns are bad talks, that's the last thing I'm advocating, just communication. We'll see, until then, let's start a new School Police or Armed Security Department, nationwide. Not a militant, unfriendly group, but organized, trained, ARMED law enforcement and Military veterans trained in active shooter response, de-escaltion techniques, with professional uniforms, standards, training, and expectations. Do it hand in hand with municipal Law Enforcement and use Community Policing techniques that will not put fear into the public. I work in Industrial Security know as a SGT. and spit shine my boots, make sure all my Officers are squared away and strive to make it look good. If you look and act Professional, people treat you like a Professional. All of my Officers are Army Vets too, I'm lucky. My point being our society is at a point now, unfortunately, where we need to meet force with force. It'd be a big deterrent for these shooters to know that there's more than 1 lone school resource officer, there's a whole bunch of trained, ARMED Men and Women standing vigilant to stop the needless bloodshed.

Response by LtCol Brent Norquist made Jun 12 at 2014 8:40 PM

LtCol Brent Norquist — Thu, 12 Jun 2014 20:40:19 -0400

One point that is being brushed under the rug by the media is that this shooting could have been a lot worse. The shooter had a bag with many magazines for his AR-15 and handgun. However, there were two armed police resource officers at the school who responded within 90 seconds and cornered the kid before he could kill anyone else. Since these type of shooters are usually attention seeking cowards and not someone who wants to engage in a gunfight with people who shoot back, he killed himself (like the Vegas shooters at WalMart). Bottom-line, good guys with guns are the first line of defense against crazies intent on doing harm.

Response by SFC Christopher Perry made Jun 13 at 2014 9:53 AM

SFC Christopher Perry — Fri, 13 Jun 2014 09:53:35 -0400

SSG Redondo,

Every time one of these nut cases decides to show up at a school with a gun I am forced to relive the Columbine Massacre. No, I was not in the school, although I tried to get in as fast as possible. My mother was a teacher at the school for right at 30 years. A very good friend was the teacher who made the 911 call from the library. I am far from alone in the emotions that these more and more common incidents bring back to the surface.

Everyone wants to point in all kinds of stupid directions, purely to push their own agenda. Instead why doesn't society as a whole step back and ask why this seems to be building speed? It was a rhetorical question obviously. The real answer hurts feelings. We have become a weak self absorbed nation who has forgotten what it means to be a parent. Parents and schools alike are breading a generation of kids who have been coddled to the extent that they cannot handle failure or rejection. "Oh woe with me", has become "lets just go shoot somebody". Stop looking at guns and the mental heath industry as this is just another example of not taking responsibility. Instead look in the mirror and ask who is really raising your children. If it is the TV set, laptop and or the favorite video game instead of you... You are the problem. Step up, put down the cell phone for a while and be a parent.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2014 6:49 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 15 Jun 2014 18:49:30 -0400

SSG Redondo:

Excellent post! The reason why the government attempts to outlaw firearms comes down to one simple word: CONTROL.

These last few decades of our history has shown an increasing desire of our federal government to control every facet of America citizens' lives, their choices, and their lifestyles. The last bastion of resistance to this ever-increasing encroachment to Freedom and Liberty is firearms. With firearms, The People can resist. History has shown that when a populace is disarmed, the central government wields unlimited power over the populace. History has also shown that in the case of tyrants and dictators, when they have disarmed their people, mass executions in the hundreds of thousands or millions of people have occurred.

It is my opinion that the increasing frequency of firearms related events have been engineered so as to allow either the same (previously defeated) or new anti-gun legislation to be (re-)introduced in Congress. Many may call this "paranoid" thinking, but if you look at many of these incidents, gun control legislation was introduced either the same day or within days of each incident. Writing bills is not a quick or easy thing to do, and getting them into consideration in the House is even more difficult and time-consuming. To me, this shows that these bills were written in advance and were ready to go. Could Congressmembers have written these in advance and had them "stored up?" Sure, that is possible. But then if this were the case, then this just goes to prove the Congressmember's desire to violate the US Constitution.

Furthermore, in a few cases, each time a major gun control bill is defeated, another firearms related incident occurs soon after, allowing for another "bite at the apple" with even more emotion attached to it. As Military professionals, we are trained to observe and look for patterns. This has been a pattern since President Reagan was shot in an attempted assassination.

In almost every one of the more publicized shooting incidents, the shooters were psychologically ill and were on psychotropic medication. At the best, it shows that the shooters were not capable of making informed critical decisions, and thus should not have had access to firearms. At worst, there have been suggestions that these people have been directed, nudged, etc. into committing the acts that they did. Again, this may sound "paranoid," but our government has in its history, several programs geared towards mind control and psychological manipulation. Also consider that the Army has an entire branch for Psychological Operations (now called MISO). Today's drug technology and the fact that we are as a nation are medicating children more than any other time in our history.

Any time a child dares to show creativity and independence from the strict guidelines of what is considered "Education" today, or just shows signs of being a child, s/he is slapped with an ADD, ADHD, or other diagnosis, and put on mood-altering drugs. After years of these mood-altering drugs, what is considered entertainment on TV, mainstream media news broadcasts, and violent video games, the stage is set for disaster.

The bottom line here is that government needs to concentrate on doing the things that they were ordered to do by the Constitution and no more. Parents need to both be more active in their childrens' lives and take more responsibility for raising their children and ensuring they become responsible adults who know Right from Wrong.

Response by CMDCM Gene Treants made Jun 15 at 2014 11:32 PM

CMDCM Gene Treants — Sun, 15 Jun 2014 23:32:22 -0400

SSG Redondo, my real issue with this story i the way the local station broke it. The announcer started with, "Shots fired at Reynolds High School." And the paused for a few seconds before saying in Oregon. Since we live very near Winston-Salem, NC and there is a school there named Reynolds High School, my heart stopped for those few seconds. When she said the last words, I could then imagine the relief and ANGER as the parents of every child at that school listened to that same broadcast. The media of our country is so busy grabbing headlines and spreading sensationalism that they are irresponsible at times.

As far as weapons and gun control go, I agree with you completely. Even if we took away ALL guns, criminals and others set on this kind of violence would still find a way. Gun control is NOT the answer and restricting our rights as allowed under the Second Amendment in not and never has been the answer.