AIT Soldier is told by her PSG that her father who's an officer can't pick her up for pass because it's fraternization. T or F?

2015-02-23T21:52:45-05:00

The PSG is claiming its fraternization because she is enlisted and he's officer. He has picked her up previously but now they consider it a problem. Just to clarify, no he is not in her unit.

***UPDATE: So this AIT Soldier who graduates next month has been given a recommendation for UCMJ and14 days of extra duty. Why? For getting in the car with her Father who is a Major here on post on Sunday. She has been signed out 3 times previously on Sunday's with no problem. This last time her PSG told her she could not do it anymore because it is fraternization. The counseling statement actually says that. They are saying she is not allowed in the vehicle with him even if he signs her out.***

Response by SPC(P) Jay Heenan made Feb 23 at 2015 10:02 PM

2015-02-23T22:02:08-05:00

I'll play...it is not fraternization.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Feb 23 at 2015 10:02 PM

2015-02-23T22:02:28-05:00

No, pre-existing family relationship.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2015 10:03 PM

2015-02-23T22:03:27-05:00

Possibly nervous of what the AIT Soldier will say to her dad?

Response by SFC Collin McMillion made Feb 23 at 2015 10:10 PM

2015-02-23T22:10:10-05:00

Her father is her father no matter what, only issue would be if he tried to use his rank and/position to influence others in some way to favor her.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2015 10:12 PM

2015-02-23T22:12:21-05:00

AR 600-20, 4-14, b:

All relationships between Soldiers of different grade are prohibited if they—
(1) Compromise, or appear to compromise, the integrity of supervisory authority or the chain of command.
(2) Cause actual or perceived partiality or unfairness.
(3) Involve, or appear to involve, the improper use of grade or position for personal gain.
(4) Are, or are perceived to be, exploitative or coercive in nature.
(5) Create an actual or clearly predictable adverse impact on discipline, authority, morale, or the ability of the command to accomplish its mission.

Does the father daughter relationship cause any of the above conditions? I would say no. BUT.

4–15. Other prohibited relationships
a. Trainee and Soldier relationships. Any relationship between permanent party personnel and initial entry training trainees not required by the training mission is prohibited. This prohibition applies to permanent party personnel without regard to the installation of assignment of the permanent party member or the trainee.

I think this is probably what the PSG went by.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2015 10:22 PM

2015-02-23T22:22:53-05:00

SFC Fung beat me to it, by posting the actual regulation. Its the same across the board for family members, whether it be parents, siblings, or spouses. I'd be questioning their motives as to why they told the Soldier this.

Response by 1SG Ronnie Miller made Feb 23 at 2015 10:24 PM

2015-02-23T22:24:54-05:00

It is not Fraternization if the Relationship between the Enlisted person and the Officer is Mother, Father, Sister,Brother, Son, or Daughter. The rule also applies to Grandparents. My Daughter was a CPT when I was a 1SG.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2015 10:24 PM

2015-02-23T22:24:59-05:00

No, it should be a family exemption because he's her father.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2015 10:47 PM

2015-02-23T22:47:52-05:00

That's just dumb.

Response by SMSgt Judy Hickman made Feb 23 at 2015 10:47 PM

2015-02-23T22:47:59-05:00

Are you fricking kidding me...some people really have no life if they are saying this is fraternization. He's her father, so therefore it is an preexisting family relationship.

Hopefully the Army is smart enough to make sure they don't work together ever. This will ensure that it is impossible for favoritism or any other bs to occur.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Feb 23 at 2015 11:13 PM

2015-02-23T23:13:17-05:00

600-20 clearly delineates what fraternization is and isn't... Father and daughter could never be...

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2015 11:21 PM

2015-02-23T23:21:20-05:00

I'd like some DS to try and stop me from picking up my kid...

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 24 at 2015 12:06 AM

2015-02-24T00:06:13-05:00

This would fall under TRADOC Regulation 350-6

I am not going to look for it as I just came from TRADOC and just know that this statement is false and the PSG needs to be counseled as such.

I would think that the PSG is utilizing undue influence to prevent the Trainee (Daughter) from leaving the area.

There is something else going on if the PSG is now claiming this. The Trainee needs to act on the open door policy. Trainee's have a ton of power in TRADOC.

My in-brief was, "A Private has no reason to lie." I about fell out of my chair. It is crazy what a Private can get away with.

I was not well received while in TRADOC. I got results though. I also know my M.O.S. Many instructors unfortunately do not. A sad state of affairs to see.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 24 at 2015 12:09 AM

2015-02-24T00:09:34-05:00

I have 2 sons serving. The youngest is in Basic as I type this. I don't think the PSG wants to stand at attention and explain to me why I can't pick up my son on pass. I don't pull rank often but if they were to make rank an ROE, then I will be happy to play by those rules.

Probably just false bravado and rhetoric.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 24 at 2015 12:17 AM

2015-02-24T00:17:38-05:00

It is not as family does not count. That is why they try to ensure that all family does not serve in the same unit, or section, etc. to include SSG and SPC or SGT, etc. This is just silly and either the PSG needs to read up on his regulations or he/she is not being fair to the Soldier. Either way it is not a violation. The only thing I could even imagine is if they were only giving her a pass and not others. That would be perceived as a partiality or unfairness (real or perceived) as outlined in AR 600-20 4-14 2a.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 24 at 2015 12:44 AM

2015-02-24T00:44:31-05:00

AR 600-20, 4-15, a:

4–15. Other prohibited relationships
a. Trainee and Soldier relationships. Any relationship between permanent party personnel and initial entry training trainees not required by the training mission is prohibited. This prohibition applies to permanent party personnel without regard to the installation of assignment of the permanent party member or the trainee.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 24 at 2015 1:56 AM

2015-02-24T01:56:55-05:00

A buddy in my AIT who was an E2 at the time was married to an O3. He enlisted after they were married.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Feb 24 at 2015 2:41 AM

2015-02-24T02:41:50-05:00

When she was a kid growing up and dad punished her in the past, was she grounded or given NJP with extra duty?

Response by LTC Eric Coger made Feb 24 at 2015 3:16 AM

2015-02-24T03:16:17-05:00

Clearly not Fraternization, prior relationship existed before Soldier enlisted. BTW, though not applicable in this case, it is irrelevant what unit the officer and enlisted are in. Current DoD policy (all services adopted the same policy back around 1998/2001 timeframe), states tha these relationships are not permitted regardless of whether or not the two people are in the same unit or chain of command. This is violated quite a bit, but I actually agree with the policy in principle having been both enlisted and commissioned and seeing first hand some of thte problems that can arise.

Response by LTC Eric Coger made Feb 24 at 2015 4:39 AM

2015-02-24T04:39:12-05:00

I would also add that basic has gone soft. Who the hell had "off" time during basic? That part speaks to either special treatment or a softening of basic training.

Response by Maj Mike Sciales made Feb 24 at 2015 4:44 AM

2015-02-24T04:44:31-05:00

Try customs of the service. Families have served for generations. Fathers picking up sons (and now daughters) has never, ever been considered fraternization, unless the subordinate were to act with undue familiarity in a DUTY situation. That PSG would be advised to look at the totality of circumstances before jumping to a bad decision. Further doubt? Get a legal opinion from base SJA. They are fast and FREE!

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Feb 24 at 2015 5:08 AM

2015-02-24T05:08:10-05:00

Um there is fraternization and then there is common sense. I will assume the AIT Platton Sergeant does not want to progress any further. Hell I went to AIT with the base CG son in AIT and no the CG did not pick up the son but the son went "home" on weekends. I served with a senator's son talk about awkward call home SGT but don't complain too much...

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 24 at 2015 5:10 AM

2015-02-24T05:10:49-05:00

We are in living the land of stupid where all of a sudden stupid seems fashionable.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 24 at 2015 7:07 AM

2015-02-24T07:07:33-05:00

Gotta say it's not fraternization. This might go to letter of the law vs. spirit of the law. And I know there's a great discussion thread on that subject. I'll try to find it:

https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/are-you-a-letter-of-the-law-or-a-spirit-of-the-law-person

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 24 at 2015 7:21 AM

2015-02-24T07:21:19-05:00

Read DA PAM 600-35.2-8

"2-8. Officer—Trainee (Family Relationships)
a. Situation. COL Smith is commander of Training Brigade A. His son, PVT Smith, is
in Company B of this Brigade. Does the current policy have any impact on their relationship
while PVT Smith is in training?

b. Explanation. AR 600-20, paragraph 4-15 prohibits any relationship between permanent
party personnel and IET trainees not required by the training mission. Although
this could be interpreted so as to prohibit any contact between COL Smith
and his son while his son is in basic training, the intent of the policy is not to disrupt
existing family relationships. At the same time, officer/enlisted family members
are expected to maintain the traditional respect and decorum attending the
official military relationship between them while either is on duty or in public."

The last line basically says it is ok as long as it is proper and respectful.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 24 at 2015 7:42 AM

2015-02-24T07:42:55-05:00

False

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Feb 24 at 2015 7:44 AM

2015-02-24T07:44:12-05:00

Only if he is dating her.................................

Response by SPC Brandon Spray made Feb 24 at 2015 7:46 AM

2015-02-24T07:46:19-05:00

That's just mind games and retarded. Reminds me of my old 1SG getting pissed because all my friends were NCO's and I was a SPC. The conversation was funny, told her to find me a responsible E-4 and below that has kids, doesn't party and I actually have something in common with. She left us alone after that.

Response by MSG Scott McBride made Feb 24 at 2015 8:18 AM

2015-02-24T08:18:04-05:00

All have said it well, it's not fraternization. I would like a leadership chain to tell me I couldn't pick up my son.

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Feb 24 at 2015 9:54 AM

2015-02-24T09:54:17-05:00

I would luv to have had someone tell me that I couldn't pick my son up for Christmas Exodus or one of his passes when he was in training at Benning and I was stationed there....seems like someone needs to hit reset on their common sense button IMO.

Response by SPC Neil Hood made Feb 24 at 2015 9:58 AM

2015-02-24T09:58:29-05:00

It's her Dad for Gods sake...

Response by MAJ Jim Steven made Feb 24 at 2015 10:39 AM

2015-02-24T10:39:34-05:00

This is why I just assume people making "On the Spot Corrections" just leave me the hell alone....
I dont care what the regulation says, in cases like this...i consult AR Common Sense and drive on....not everyone has a copy, though!!

Response by 1LT Nick Kidwell made Feb 24 at 2015 10:44 AM

2015-02-24T10:44:00-05:00

That is about one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard regarding initial entry training. There may have been other reasons, but fraternization is not one of them.

Are you sure you're not just padding your points?

Response by A1C Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 24 at 2015 10:44 AM

2015-02-24T10:44:48-05:00

That's like saying I can't go home for Christmas because my brother also goes home for Christmas and happens to be an officer. It's an issue if you expect special treatment, but they are your family, you spend time with them, it's no different from before you joined.

Response by SSG Leonard Johnson made Feb 24 at 2015 11:18 AM

2015-02-24T11:18:25-05:00

If other Joe's can be picked up...I have no problem...However if SM only one getting treated this way...then naw

Response by LTC Stephen C. made Feb 24 at 2015 11:57 AM

2015-02-24T11:57:05-05:00

SSG Robert Burns, regulation or no, this could hardly be construed as fraternization. If anything, I would think the PSG would welcome the visit, as it could improve the trainee's morale.
At Fort Bragg, c. JUN70, I was a SP4 at SFTG and my first cousin, a 2LT, was also there in training, but assigned elsewhere. He took me to the Officers' Club for dinner. Granted, I was not an AIT trainee, but that little treat was a real boost to my morale, and helped me through the rest of my training.
I can't imagine why anyone would want to prevent such little positive encounters from occurring.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 24 at 2015 12:19 PM

2015-02-24T12:19:54-05:00

Fraternization, from my understanding, can only happen when they are within the same chain of command and the higher ranking individual is in a position to create undue influence over the lower ranking one.

Plus...

What are they going to do? Sever paternal ties? Mmmkay.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 24 at 2015 12:27 PM

2015-02-24T12:27:29-05:00

Think of it this way.... A parent picking up his child. It is not fraternization

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 24 at 2015 1:51 PM

2015-02-24T13:51:21-05:00

That is bullsh*t at its finest. He is her FATHER, not her boyfriend. Children cant help who their parents are and I bet said officer had a field day over that little fiasco.

Response by PO3 Jeff Lane made Feb 24 at 2015 2:07 PM

2015-02-24T14:07:09-05:00

This is her father, seriously. Get a grip.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 24 at 2015 2:44 PM

2015-02-24T14:44:23-05:00

It's her father. Army Regulations were not intended to interfere with family relationships. That's ridiculous. That PSG needs to have a DA 4856 from the 1SG.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 24 at 2015 2:46 PM

2015-02-24T14:46:14-05:00

I wish someone would try to tell me I can't associate with my blood relatives who are enlisted.

Response by CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 24 at 2015 2:48 PM

2015-02-24T14:48:17-05:00

Asinine.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 24 at 2015 3:11 PM

2015-02-24T15:11:10-05:00

SSG Robert Burns is this actually happening AT Fort Jackson now?

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 24 at 2015 3:29 PM

2015-02-24T15:29:04-05:00

The relationship obviously existed prior to there being any issue between ranks and there is no method in which this could be seen as preferential treatment or anything against the good order and discipline required. It's bollocks. There are many enlisted Soldiers who have commissioned parents. What? Are they supposed to ignore their family now?

Response by SPC Nate Lamphier made Feb 24 at 2015 3:38 PM

2015-02-24T15:38:26-05:00

There are battles that are worth fighting.....then there are these types of battles that you let go.

Response by SFC(P) Tobias M. made Feb 24 at 2015 3:45 PM

2015-02-24T15:45:47-05:00

Its her farther Come one now.

Response by SP5 Richard Maze made Feb 24 at 2015 4:11 PM

2015-02-24T16:11:35-05:00

The he is her father? Not "old enough to be her father," but her real father? No, that is not fraternization.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 24 at 2015 4:25 PM

2015-02-24T16:25:42-05:00

Not fraternization since the two are related. May be a lame excuse to prevent SM from leaving training area if other SMs are not allowed to do so.

Response by Sgt Christopher Allen made Feb 24 at 2015 4:50 PM

2015-02-24T16:50:52-05:00

Where it could be considered fraternization is if they were in the same unit and the enlisted was receiving benefits from dad. Fraternization rules are grey when it comes to family members in the same unit. Great topic.

Response by LCpl Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 24 at 2015 5:35 PM

2015-02-24T17:35:01-05:00

Last I checked, there's exceptions for prior relationships in fraternization policy. Pretty sure raising your child since birth is a prior relationship, this PSG has his head up his ass and needs to be squared away ASAP.

Response by MSgt Stephanie McCalister made Feb 24 at 2015 5:36 PM

2015-02-24T17:36:59-05:00

"Social and family relationships between officer and enlisted personnel are allowed in the context of community organizations, athletic teams and events, unit based social functions or family gatherings" Army Regulation 600-20

Other branches have variations of family relationship that such as parent & offspring, generally with the proviso that when on duty or in uniform, appropriate military protocols are respected & adhered to. Generally, pre-existing legal relationships such as familial or marriage, are not violations of the UCMJ, though each branch may have definitions of public or official protocols that still apply.

** edited to add ** All that being said, basic training & AIT training are generally considered 'recruit' training, though AIT earns more privileges such as passes and may be somewhat less restrictive than basic, as these are considered formative in initial military training. Hence the no family visitation rules during basic & limited access during AIT.

To further address this as a 'not' fraternization scenario, here's an example of a USAF Commissioned Father/Enlisted Daughter situation: http://www.pacaf.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123318771

Response by PV2 Alaina Norman made Feb 24 at 2015 5:58 PM

2015-02-24T17:58:58-05:00

Thats insane

Response by SSG Leonard J W. made Feb 24 at 2015 6:18 PM

2015-02-24T18:18:13-05:00

SSG Robert Burns: What a crock of crap!! Perhaps the father should contact the commander and strongly recommend fraternization training (what it is v. what it is not) for the unit. That should piss off the commander (no one wants to be told they're not training their unit), which would piss off the 1SG, who would square that PSG away...just my 2 cents.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 24 at 2015 7:01 PM

2015-02-24T19:01:05-05:00

The PSG should know better.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 24 at 2015 7:08 PM

2015-02-24T19:08:51-05:00

The regulation concerning this is not 600-20 , it is TRADOC 350-6, these are not Soldiers until they graduate AIT, they are trainees, and yes we had to enforce this when I was assigned to TRADOC. I am not defending it, but it was standard practice 4 years ago at the 2 different TRADOC installations I was assigned too.
This had more to do with the phased approach to the amount of privileges Trainee as they progressed in training, until they reach a certain phase they must always have a Battle Buddy etc

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Feb 24 at 2015 9:58 PM

2015-02-24T21:58:22-05:00

Would it matter if it were her husband? Should there be a difference?

Response by Sgt Jay Jones made Feb 25 at 2015 12:20 AM

2015-02-25T00:20:27-05:00

I have two brother-in-laws who are both retired Army. The oldest one is a retired 1SG. The other one is a retired LTC. At one point they were both stationed in Germany. The youngest who was a CPT at the time was standing around the mess hall watching as the troops walked in. The oldest brother who was a SFC walked up behind his baby brother and smacked him on the back of the head. Needless to say others were shocked and the older brother burst out laughing.

Another incident occurred when the young CPT's vehicle was damaged. The older SFC was in charge of the transportation section. CPT goes to SFC and tells him he better give him a new vehicle or he was gonna call Momma!

You cannot consider family frateriation. It would be stupid to even try.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2015 3:51 AM

2015-02-25T03:51:53-05:00

When I was at OCS, we ALWAYS had to have a battle buddy with us. The only appropriate battle buddies were other candidates from ONLY our own class, or a spouse. My roommate was a prior-service E-5 who was stationed in Hawaii and hadn't seen her family much over the previous few years. We had a 4 day holiday weekend pass where her parents came down to visit, but my roommate was told that she could not be alone with her parents because they were not the proper battle buddies. She ended up having to get a hotel room and bring a classmate around everywhere the whole weekend so she wouldn't get kicked out of the course.

I don't care if your parent is a service member or not. Both situations are ridiculous and shouldn't happen.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2015 4:18 AM

2015-02-25T04:18:10-05:00

I don't think that policy applies to family! Let's apply some common sense here.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2015 4:24 AM

2015-02-25T04:24:17-05:00

Absurd.

Response by PO1 Joan (Tipka) (Plummer) Fisher made Feb 25 at 2015 5:07 AM

2015-02-25T05:07:37-05:00

I was in this same situation 25 years ago. My father is an Officer I enlisted. Because the relationship was established before my enlistment and my father is not in my chain of command it was not fraternization. However the good order and discipline in public is still required as well of behavior of an Officer

Response by PO1 Matthew Murdock made Feb 25 at 2015 5:59 AM

2015-02-25T05:59:20-05:00

Franternization is a undully familiar relationship. This is family.

Response by Cpl Clinton Britt made Feb 25 at 2015 7:15 AM

2015-02-25T07:15:12-05:00

Kind of stupid if you ask me. I though that sime where in the Army code. Was Family. In my opinion, what a service personell do on their own time and in their own home or vehicle for that matter is up to them.

If Dad was trying to lean on her command for promotion or other professiol percs then you have a problem

Really what is the difference of your platoon com/ander giving you a ride home or to the barracks or the First Shirt for that matter

Response by CPT Richard Riley made Feb 25 at 2015 7:15 AM

2015-02-25T07:15:41-05:00

Considering that she is HIS daughter, the issue does not apply. The PSG can make any claim he wishes but that does not preclude a parent picking up a soldier on pass. If - and I stress IF - the appearance of the officer picking up his enlisted daughter creates some kind of visual issue with the other soldiers in training ... even AFTER they are informed that he is her father, then the PSG needs to make arrangements for her to be in an alternate location where dad can pick her up without incident. Perception just makes more work for him, there is nothing wrong with the facts at hand.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2015 7:33 AM

2015-02-25T07:33:39-05:00

No. This is dumb. Were I the dad, I'd probably have a chat with this PSG.

Response by Maj Chris Nelson made Feb 25 at 2015 9:25 AM

2015-02-25T09:25:13-05:00

PSG is just an idiot in this specific case. HOPEFULLY he/she is smarter then this in the rest of the appointed duties.....

Response by CDR Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2015 10:14 AM

2015-02-25T10:14:57-05:00

Come up with better discussion items...this is retarded and needlessly inflammatory! You risk rapid irrelevance if this is the best you can do!

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2015 10:16 AM

2015-02-25T10:16:26-05:00

Absolutely incorrect information. I bet that PSG is getting the business from the CSM right about now! I served as an AIT PSG at FT Gordon, GA and there was never an issue with an Officer parent picking up an Enlisted Soldier. There it didn't matter what the parent's rank was the Soldier was treated fairly and the same as any other.

Response by SGT Francis Wright made Feb 25 at 2015 10:26 AM

2015-02-25T10:26:46-05:00

The PSG needs to make a JAG appt. He is harassing his soldier.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Feb 25 at 2015 11:18 AM

2015-02-25T11:18:00-05:00

***UPDATE: So this AIT Soldier who graduates next month has been given a recommendation for UCMJ and14 days of extra duty. Why? For getting in the car with her Father who is a Major here on post on Sunday. She has been signed out 3 times previously on Sunday's with no problem. This last time her PSG told her she could not do it anymore because it is fraternization. The counseling statement actually says that. They are saying she is not allowed in the vehicle with him even if he signs her out.***

Response by SSgt Tim Ricci made Feb 25 at 2015 11:35 AM

2015-02-25T11:35:20-05:00

Negative Ghost Rider, this is in NO way Fraternization, In my Experience having been Married to a Navy Officer for 18 years with my Grade from E-2 through E-6, the only problem I faced was when I re entered the military as a Marine and several Officers tried to throw that problem at me because they saw me driving my wifes Blue Sticker car on Various Occasions! Prior to this I was a Sgt in the Army and had gotten out for my wife to complete Nursing school, after she graduated she decided to Join the Navy!

Response by SPC Stan Harrington made Feb 25 at 2015 11:40 AM

2015-02-25T11:40:31-05:00

I live in Killeen and I've seen quite frequently an officer and enlisted dining together off post (Ft Hood, Texas).

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2015 12:15 PM

2015-02-25T12:15:23-05:00

Wait, wait... a PSG doesn't actually know what the regulation is? Inconceivable!

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2015 1:05 PM

2015-02-25T13:05:11-05:00

I wouldn't address it with him/her directly, because that Sergeant is too stupid to comprehend the regulation. I would address it with his Company Commander.

Since he escalated it to legal matters though, I'd address it with at least an IG complaint toward him. I would also inquire to the JAG as to what punishment is appropriate for wasting everyone's time with his stupidity. Play those kinds of games, you're gonna win those kinds of prizes.

Response by SPC Kimberley Kerr made Feb 25 at 2015 1:18 PM

2015-02-25T13:18:39-05:00

All thought I think it is stupid to give the soldier an Article 15 for it. Why does the soldier get special treatment by being released to family during training.

Response by Cpl Geoffrey Davis made Feb 25 at 2015 1:31 PM

2015-02-25T13:31:46-05:00

I hated a "peace time" military where SNCOs can manufacture problems/issues so they can flex their stripes.

Response by GySgt Michael Emerson made Feb 25 at 2015 1:38 PM

2015-02-25T13:38:58-05:00

Element #(5) "That, under the circumstances, the conduct of the accused was to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces or was of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces." Daddy picking up his daughter is NOT prejudicial to good order and discipline. The platoon Sgt is just being a dick.

Response by Capt Lance Gallardo made Feb 25 at 2015 2:22 PM

2015-02-25T14:22:36-05:00

She needs to request mast with her Commanding Officer. As a former marine JAG this order by her PSG seems dubious much less the proposed article 15. If all else fails she can submit an Article 138 Complaint of Wrongs and force an official response from her command. I think the command will back down at that point. Fraternization has a long and well documented in case law meaning, and normally family relations such as officer and enlisted marriages (as well as parent/son or daughter) are exempt from rules governing fraternization.The overall concern is the impact (or lack thereof) on "conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline." Without doing any legal research on the current interpretations of unlawful fraternization and on what is or is not unlawful fraternization, this is just general information and not to be construed as legal advice. Maybe she should go to the Trial Defense Shop ASAP and consult with a defense JAG.

Response by Capt Richard Prosser made Feb 25 at 2015 2:25 PM

2015-02-25T14:25:55-05:00

The number of warrant officer/enlisted married couples I have come across in the Corps would seem to follow similar logic to familial fraternization if there were such a thing. I can't see how this could be considered prejudicial to good order and discipline. There will always be someone who has a need to attack an individual for personal reasons though and that sounds like what this may well be...

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Feb 25 at 2015 2:27 PM

2015-02-25T14:27:21-05:00

Time for the commander to realize that pursuing UCMJ is not correct and to order the 1SG to counsel the Platoon Sergeant. I am very interested in what JAG says about this UCMJ action.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2015 2:34 PM

2015-02-25T14:34:25-05:00

Update Response: At some point a higher commander and/or Jag is going to get ahold of this and see the stupidity of it. Further, they better pray the news doesn't catch this. It will be difficult for the command and the PAO to explain.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2015 2:39 PM

2015-02-25T14:39:06-05:00

It is not fraternization at all. But the father has no authority to intervene in the discipline of his child; that would be nepotism. The NCOs should solute the father but remind the Soldier when she is to return. Daughter does not wear the rank of her father and in no way should she be punished for it. If her father is worth a dam, he will respect the unit and unit leadership but that is a two way street.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2015 2:44 PM

2015-02-25T14:44:15-05:00

He is her FATHER first that takes precedence over everything. Some PC person GET a life. If this is all the army has to worry about things must be petty great in the rest of the world.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2015 3:14 PM

2015-02-25T15:14:29-05:00

I want to know who the 5% of readers of this thread are who voted that this could be fraternization.... so I can down vote everything they post on here from now on for going full potato.

THIS IS HER FATHER!!!!! *smdh*....bullshit like this is why I'm on medication for hypertension.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2015 3:22 PM

2015-02-25T15:22:26-05:00

Bottom line here, this private should now do two things: immediately go to JAG, and if they don't have their heads up their asses, they'll tell her to refuse the Article 15 and demand trial by court martial... and tell her father. If he's a full bird, he'll bring some heat.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2015 3:24 PM

2015-02-25T15:24:09-05:00

That whole good order and discipline thing.. it allows blow-hards to take a military law and twist it into an awkward family situation.. whatever makes some people sleep good at night. I don't believe the intent of establishing fraternization prohibitions meant for this to be taken to the extreme like that..

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2015 3:28 PM

2015-02-25T15:28:31-05:00

Question....are they going to counsel the Major as well for fraternization. I think not.... On a personal note if this was me I would fight it.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Feb 25 at 2015 3:35 PM

2015-02-25T15:35:16-05:00

This is a prime example of not using common sense. That father needs to contact someone much higher to get this bull shit settled.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2015 3:41 PM

2015-02-25T15:41:38-05:00

How many SJA offices would allow any such Article 15 proceedings based on this "story"? Zero.

Response by LT Lee Barratt made Feb 25 at 2015 3:57 PM

2015-02-25T15:57:36-05:00

So where is the common sense with these people. I am more amazed on a daily basis when I see this happening in the military.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2015 4:01 PM

2015-02-25T16:01:00-05:00

You know what else I just thought of? I'm surprised no one's yet called TV or newspapers in on this? This could really be bad for Ft. Jackson. Someone should probably at LEAST call the Public Affairs office and let them in on it.....what do you think, SSG Robert Burns ???

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2015 4:05 PM

2015-02-25T16:05:07-05:00

Overzealous PSG. Needs to check himself before he finds himself on the wrong side of a desk explaining himself.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2015 4:22 PM

2015-02-25T16:22:16-05:00

In accordance with AR 600-20, paragraph 4-14, yes it can be defined as fraternization or an inappropriate relationship in that the Enlisted Service Member is still attending IET, whereas the Officer is obviously permanent party. The regulation also states: “Commanders must carefully consider all of the facts and circumstances in reaching a disposition that is appropriate. Generally, the commander should take the minimum action necessary to ensure that the needs of good order and discipline are satisfied.” That being said, commanders usually won’t make a big stink about it unless the relationship is making an adverse impact on morale and discipline.

Now, based on solely the language your thread post, I would gather that the situation wasn’t properly handled. However, I do not know the facts. If the AIT Instructor/PSG respectfully told the Officer that it is inappropriate to pick up the IET Soldier while in uniform in front of other IET Soldiers, I don’t see an issue. The biggest problem that the AIT Instructor/PSG had to address is the perception of favoritism created by the Officer in uniform. Said PSG should have addressed the issue off-line, respectfully stating words to the effect of “Sir, I am concerned that you picking up your daughter for pass while you are in uniform could create an awkward perception of favoritism amongst the other junior Soldiers. Would it be possible to meet your daughter in civilian clothes?”

Too easy.

Response by Matthew Torrelli made Feb 25 at 2015 4:28 PM

2015-02-25T16:28:34-05:00

As long as her father the Officer is not in that AIT unit and a officer in that unit she can be picked up by him

Response by SFC Dan Sorrow, M.S. made Feb 25 at 2015 5:15 PM

2015-02-25T17:15:47-05:00

It's not fraternization, it's stupidity.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2015 5:45 PM

2015-02-25T17:45:43-05:00

Family is exempt and they are also in completely different commands, let alone units. Only the superior officer can be charged with fraternization if it wasn't family.

Response by TSgt David Holman made Feb 25 at 2015 5:51 PM

2015-02-25T17:51:21-05:00

Preexisting parental relationship. This is in no way fraternization...

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2015 6:12 PM

2015-02-25T18:12:22-05:00

I take it the individual pulling this has not read the regulations and has no common sense either. I believe fraternization has no bearing on members within the same family as long as they are not in the same local chain of command and are not trying to circumvent any legal regulations and/or orders.
Since there was a legal 'pass' involved - there should not have been any issue (especially since this has been authorized previously with no problems) - I think someone is looking for their '5 minutes of fame' - but they definitely chose the wrong way of getting it. This should be pushed up the chain and made right.
If one of my kids went into one of the services and became an officer - I would still interact with them as a family member. If this kind of abuse of 'authority' reared its head - I would definitely make sure it was dealt with appropriately and swiftly.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2015 6:18 PM

2015-02-25T18:18:01-05:00

Common sense says that this is not fraternization. Is this soldier also not allowed to have Thanksgiving Dinner in the same dwelling with her father?

...If it SERIOUSLY needs to be spelled out, the relationship existed prior to enlistment, and is a family relationship, which isn't covered by 600-20 within paragraph 4-14 (fraternization). She may be recommended for UCMJ, but there's no way it's going to go anywhere.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2015 6:36 PM

2015-02-25T18:36:18-05:00

I know during my AIT which was over 6 months long, we could not leave until we had "privileges". Perhaps this Soldier lost theirs.

It can also be a matter of perception, which is something we as leaders are taught to be concerned with and to teach our subordinates. It could be perceived that the SM is receiving special treatment because their father is an officer.

There is always more to the story.

The questions was "is it fraternization?" No.

Response by A1C Tom Forrest made Feb 25 at 2015 6:53 PM

2015-02-25T18:53:07-05:00

It's a preexisting relationship. We covered that pretty clearly in my UCMJ briefing in basic. The Major is her father right? He's not in her chain of command, there are no rules being broken here. Preexisting relationships are exempted from UCMJ action. Sounds to me like the PSG wants to punish this soldier for something, and this is the only thing he can find. PSG is being a chickenshit. The charges wouldn't stick, and if they tried to issue it, it would get shot down in the appeal. I concur with a bunch of statements previous, PSG is trying to act big.

Response by MSG Greg Kelly made Feb 25 at 2015 7:00 PM

2015-02-25T19:00:07-05:00

that's a stupid ass thing to say that's her father and he was that be she was a soldier

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2015 7:12 PM

2015-02-25T19:12:16-05:00

It sounds like this PSG needs to revisit AR 600-20 this does not follow under the reg as a inappropriate relationship, furthermore it is her blood relative parent. Since he's not in her chain of command and has no effect on her career I see no reason for her to be denied spending time with her father.

4–14. Relationships between Soldiers of different grade a. The term "officer" used in this paragraph includes both commissioned and WOs unless otherwise stated. The term “noncommissioned officer” refers to a Soldier in the grade of corporal to command sergeant major/sergeant major. The term “junior enlisted Soldier” refers to a Soldier in the grade of private to specialist. The provisions of this paragraph apply to both relationships between Soldiers in the Active and Reserve Components and between Soldiers and personnel of other military Services. This policy is effective immediately, except where noted below, and applies to opposite-gender relationships and same-gender relationships. b. Soldiers of different grades must be cognizant that their interactions do not create an actual or clearly predictable perception of undue familiarity between an officer and an enlisted Soldier, or between an NCO and a junior-enlisted Soldier. Examples of familiarity between Soldiers that may become “undue” can include repeated visits to bars, nightclubs, eating establishments, or homes between an officer and an enlisted Soldier, or an NCO and a junior-enlisted Soldier, except for social gatherings, that involve an entire unit, office, or work section. All relationships between Soldiers of different grade are prohibited if they— (1) Compromise, or appear to compromise, the integrity of supervisory authority or the chain of command. (2) Cause actual or perceived partiality or unfairness. (3) Involve, or appear to involve, the improper use of grade or position for personal gain. (4) Are, or are perceived to be, exploitative or coercive in nature. (5) Create an actual or clearly predictable adverse impact on discipline, authority, morale, or the ability of the command to accomplish its mission.

It also states it is at commanders discretion dependent on the situation.

Response by SPC Chelsea Fernandez made Feb 25 at 2015 7:19 PM

2015-02-25T19:19:42-05:00

How is it fraternization if that's his daughter?? You cant just go around making up army regulation. That's the stupidest shiit I heard since being in for 6 years Or in their mind that the officer is not her father but her boyfriend. It could be that but i dont know and dont know the situation.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2015 7:21 PM

2015-02-25T19:21:52-05:00

They're already related. Can't be fraternization.

Response by SPC David S. made Feb 25 at 2015 8:13 PM

2015-02-25T20:13:15-05:00

Prior existing relationships are except from penalty of fraternization as long as proper military decorum is maintained. AR 600-20.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2015 8:16 PM

2015-02-25T20:16:32-05:00

Well, since it was stated in the story that Dad has already picked up his daughter on several other occasions without issue; and presuming their is not an underlying perception of undue positional influence on the part of MAJ Dad, ie, she is released while everyone else spends the day GI'ing the barracks, there is really only one logical course of action: Turn down the Article 15 and exercise your right for trial by Court Martial! This will either draw immediate attention to the need to cover fraternization at the next NCODP session, or result in a Court Martial with undercurrents of a parent/teacher conference media clown show. Either way, the Trainee has a good case.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2015 8:45 PM

2015-02-25T20:45:43-05:00

This is so dumb but at the same time this is meddling which comes from the commander and 1SG. The PSG should have pulled the soldier to the side and make clear to her not to publicize who her father is. Not saying she is, but let's face it, if I'm an AIT instructor, im doing everything I can to instill disciple into soldiers under TRADOC rules.

But the simple thing here was for the father to contact her commander and make it clear that this would not be an issue.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2015 9:21 PM

2015-02-25T21:21:30-05:00

Tell her when she walks in front of the Commander and is read her options of sign the Article 15 or trial by court martial, tell her to take it to court martial. dollars to pesos the command will back down because they do not have a case since there is documented proof that her father signed her out previous times and there were no issues

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2015 9:31 PM

2015-02-25T21:31:24-05:00

Only if her father is somehow in her chain of command or can do anything for her career.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2015 10:45 PM

2015-02-25T22:45:12-05:00

Go Army!
One of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard in a military environment.

I want to meet this NCO, leader of men, shake his hand.

Look him square in the eyes and speak the words, "You are a f**cking idiot."

Bucket list.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2015 10:45 PM

2015-02-25T22:45:19-05:00

Sometimes, just sometimes, what is written in a regulation is meant to be used as a clear and concise example to teach the intent behind what is to be enforced. Not every scenario is spelled out in a regulation or policy. This story above does not pass a reasonable, sound judgement test. Foolishness in these decision making processes makes a mockery for Soldiers to be entertained by. It's hard to win back rspect and remain effective when leaders do this... Nearly impossible.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 26 at 2015 12:06 AM

2015-02-26T00:06:50-05:00

I think that PSG should be command referred to behavioral health or neurology possibly.

Response by Cpl Mark McMiller made Feb 26 at 2015 12:45 AM

2015-02-26T00:45:36-05:00

Well, fraternization falls under Article 134 of the UCMJ. Here are the elements of the offense. Each of these elements must be met for there to be a violation of Article 134:

(1) That the accused was a commissioned or warrant officer;

(2) That the accused fraternized on terms of military equality with one or more certain enlisted member(s) in a certain manner;

(3) That the accused then knew the person(s) to be (an) enlisted member(s);

(4) That such fraternization violated the custom of the accused's service that officers shall not fraternize with enlisted members on terms of military equality; and

(5) That, under the circumstances, the conduct of the accused was to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces or was of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces.

Notice, under element 1, it is the officer that would be in violation, not the enlisted person. And no way would any court-martial convict a father and his daughter of fraternization for spending time together. No military prosecutor would even pursue that case because it is so ridiculous. The PSG is full of shit. Have the daughter seek legal counsel from a JAG officer, which is her right under the UCMJ. The JAG officer will most likely tell her to refuse the Article 15 punishment and request trial by court-martial. The charges will then be dropped because they don't meet the requirement of a violation under the UCMJ.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 26 at 2015 1:03 AM

2015-02-26T01:03:02-05:00

That kid better salute their daddy!

But serious, this is the kind of thing I just despise. "I will not use my grade or position to attain pleasure, profit, or personal safety." Sounds like that PSG is having plenty of pleasure being a A$$hat.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 26 at 2015 1:03 AM

2015-02-26T01:03:44-05:00

This NCO is clearly lacking in the common sense department.

It has been said numerous times on here so I wont reiterate the regulations, but this is clearly a person that needs to have their time in service closely monitored.

This is not a leader that I want in my formation going forward.

I will echo that if this NCO wants to pursue punishment and the Company Commander is stupid enough to follow the guidance of this ignoramus then the young Soldier should be given the advice to take this to trial. The judge would laugh the NCO off the base.

Response by PFC Kevin Adrian made Feb 26 at 2015 2:14 AM

2015-02-26T02:14:16-05:00

I would say this Platoon Sgt. needs to rethink what he said and remove the UCMJ from the soldiers jacket, family is not fraternization. They are not serving under him and they are related. If ever someone should be given the Moron award, this one should. My father was a Officer though retired when i served, He would have locked the Platoon Sgt's heels and left them standing at attention for a day or two. My dad was a WWII and Korea era veteran.

Response by 1SG Russell Carey made Feb 26 at 2015 5:52 AM

2015-02-26T05:52:53-05:00

This goes on at a Fort Huachuca as well, I've know cases where dual military couples stationed on the same post where the school was based at were forbidden to see each other, one SFC going through ANCOC was told she had to move in to the barracks and couldn't see her husband while she was in a student status because students and PP weren't allowed to fraternize, this was a SFC and a 1SG, ridiculous. We were able to get an exception to policy so she could live at home, that was ten years ago.

Response by SPC Larry Mease made Feb 26 at 2015 6:17 AM

2015-02-26T06:17:10-05:00

No, family relationship trumps fraternization.

Response by PV2 Phillip Price made Feb 26 at 2015 10:27 AM

2015-02-26T10:27:46-05:00

It's her father that charge is meant to cover dating and sexual conduct between enlisted and officers they need to pull their heads out off their collective assess

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 26 at 2015 11:35 AM

2015-02-26T11:35:19-05:00

This is not fraternization. There is a regulation that covers soldier privileges tradoc 350-6 and defines fraternization for them as well. If the parent is in tradoc they cannot be in a direct relationship with training. When a soldier is allowed to go on pass with a family member it doesn't matter what their affiliation with the military is it matters if that soldier meets the phase requirements and is the right phase status to ride in a pic. Again this doesn't matter if the parent is in the army or not or their rank. All soldiers have to earn their phase privileges. If the soldier was in the right phase status their should be no issue. If it was indeed because the psg said it was fraternization then their should be a complaint filed through the proper channels.

Response by SFC William Crews made Feb 26 at 2015 11:58 AM

2015-02-26T11:58:37-05:00

He's not in her unit, off-duty and her father? NOT

Response by Cpl Clinton Britt made Feb 26 at 2015 12:23 PM

2015-02-26T12:23:13-05:00

This is ludacrist. Its her Father

Response by PO3 Steven Costa made Feb 26 at 2015 1:58 PM

2015-02-26T13:58:58-05:00

It's not as long as he is not in your direct chain of command and I would have your father pick you up and correct this individuals

Response by PO3 Steven Costa made Feb 26 at 2015 2:04 PM

2015-02-26T14:04:36-05:00

It doesn't meet the definition of fraternization. This is a violation of her rights a gross mis interpretation of the ucmj and this is sounding like she needs to see the jag and commands equal opportunity officer and hell lets get the chaplain involved

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 26 at 2015 2:10 PM

2015-02-26T14:10:19-05:00

If you know this soldier, advise her to take the court martial. The commander can offer an article 15, but cannot force you to accept it. You ALWAYS have the right to a court martial. Take it. I can't see any way she would be convicted for this.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 26 at 2015 2:11 PM

2015-02-26T14:11:48-05:00

So you're wrecking a new career to prove a point. Way to go to show new troops what they're in store for. I understand the regulation perfectly but this doesn't pass the common sense test. Is the Major picking up their Soldier in uniform? If not, then how is anyone else going to know if that person is AD or not, What if dad was in the Reserves or Guard as a Major, what then?

Response by Sgt Paul Johnson made Feb 26 at 2015 2:53 PM

2015-02-26T14:53:52-05:00

This doesn't apply to immediate family members. She should have requested a court martial and it would have been dropped and the PSG would have been counseled on what constitutes fraternization.

Response by CPT Brian Kent, PhD made Feb 26 at 2015 3:09 PM

2015-02-26T15:09:14-05:00

It is not fraternization. And the PSG is part of the problem in the Army. They have completely lost their common sense. The job as a PSG is to teach soldiers to follow procedure, think and make rapid decisions so when they come under fire they can think and not wet their pants.

Additionally, this is why many people look at some NCOs as ignorant and it brings down the rest of the NCO corps. Hopefully this can be fixed and the NCO get his head out of the 4th point of contact.

Response by LCDR Jeffery Dixon made Feb 26 at 2015 4:07 PM

2015-02-26T16:07:11-05:00

Silliness

Response by CW5 Sam R. Baker made Feb 26 at 2015 5:27 PM

2015-02-26T17:27:01-05:00

DA PAM 600-35 has a ton of examples in it and I am pretty sure the PLT SGT hasn't opened it having started this process, but the chain of command who receives such a complaint really needs to assess the situation. I go to Annapolis to visit my trainee as a CW5 and I can surely say that on her graduation date I will render the proper courtesy, much as the DA PAM eludes to Army training environments. I am thankful that the Navy isn't having issues with my picking up my daughter at her location for weekends. Her enlisted and officer chain was rather courteous and respectful when I dropped in upon occasion.

Response by SGT Hector Rojas, AIGA, SHA made Feb 26 at 2015 6:17 PM

2015-02-26T18:17:53-05:00

Of all the dumb things I've heard and seen in the Army...this about takes the cake.

You can't get in the car with your own father? Or else you get UCMJ?

Question is, why isn't the MAJ chewing someone's butt for this?

AR 600-20 4-14 Gives a specific list of prohibited relationships.

Parental relationships ARE NOT fraternization.

Fraternization was enacted to address inappropriate friendships, emotional/physical relationships, gambling. NOT for being the parent or the daughter of a different ranked person.

How dumb have some people gotten?

Response by CW5 Jim Steddum made Feb 26 at 2015 7:44 PM

2015-02-26T19:44:20-05:00

If it is summarized... suck it up... If not, get a Trial Defense lawyer.

Response by SFC Walter Mack made Feb 26 at 2015 9:39 PM

2015-02-26T21:39:37-05:00

OK, so if dad is a Major, and he can't go into that company or BN CDR's office and squash this in about 10 seconds, then there's more to the story than we're getting. I could go on, but this, as presented, seems like a pretty easy issue to end fast.

Response by SSgt Thomas L. made Feb 26 at 2015 10:16 PM

2015-02-26T22:16:30-05:00

That's insane. If it is indeed fraternization, why punish the enlisted member? If the officer picked up his child while in their officer uniform, I can see it affecting morale for the enlisted person's unit.. so I can't say that this definitely is not fraternization. However, they totally punished the wrong person. Cowards.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 26 at 2015 10:58 PM

2015-02-26T22:58:52-05:00

Stupid is, as stupid does. I guess she can't do Thanksgiving with her father in attendance anymore either.. Sigh....

Response by SGT Steven Eugene Kuhn MBA made Feb 27 at 2015 12:53 AM

2015-02-27T00:53:58-05:00

PSG needs to pull his head out of his rear. This is her father, he is her ride, they are related.
Were I the major, I would go lock that PSG up and set him straight. This petty BS in our military is killing the Esprit de Corps-

Response by PO2 Jack Mitchell made Feb 27 at 2015 7:27 AM

2015-02-27T07:27:06-05:00

It is not fraternization due to the fact they have a previous relationship/paternal relationship prior to military service or prior to a person going up in rank to officer.

Response by SGT Mark Sullivan made Feb 27 at 2015 11:43 AM

2015-02-27T11:43:37-05:00

Just because your father is an officer, does not make this fraternization. You cannot choose who you're related to, I can understand, if this is a love interest, you being an AIT Student and everything. Once you're in permanent party, as long as they are not in your immediate command it's fine. But, a father picking up his child should never be considered a Frat issue. Sounds like your command is nitpicking and trying to make up reasons. This is not something that would hold up under court martial, which you do have a right to ask for under UCMJ. Consult your JAG Officer to find out more regarding this, and what action you can take to resolve the issue.

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 27 at 2015 12:09 PM

2015-02-27T12:09:25-05:00

WOW! He's her FATHER WTH is wrong with today's Army? Have we seriously become this damn stupid?

Response by SSG Greg Rivera made Feb 27 at 2015 3:32 PM

2015-02-27T15:32:24-05:00

I'm sorry, but was this a real question?

Response by Cpl Jim Bishop made Feb 27 at 2015 3:40 PM

2015-02-27T15:40:11-05:00

hes family for crying out load.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 27 at 2015 10:41 PM

2015-02-27T22:41:25-05:00

Wait. Is this happening in West Virginia? That changes everything!

Response by MAJ Chris Rice made Feb 28 at 2015 6:42 AM

2015-02-28T06:42:30-05:00

This is crap...that is like stating she is never allowed to go home. Looking for something when you have nothing!

Response by PO1 Joan (Tipka) (Plummer) Fisher made Feb 28 at 2015 6:46 AM

2015-02-28T06:46:43-05:00

I would definitely be contacting JAG and addressing this issue. I can understand charging her with failure to follow a lawful order because she was counseled to stop the behavior. But at that time she should have challenged the order by moving up the chain of command and also contacting legal. This could be construed as harassment since 3 times there were no problems. I would definitely have here contact legal on this matter.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Feb 28 at 2015 8:40 AM

2015-02-28T08:40:59-05:00

As described, it is not Frat. That doesn't mean in other circumstances the relationship couldn't be perceived as Frat.

But, here's my personal thoughts.

1) Can the PSG say her dad can't give her a ride in a vehicle?

2) Can the PSG say a Maj can't give her a ride in a vehicle?

3) Can the PSG say she can't get into a vehicle with another service member? Regardless of rank or gender?

The PSG is making a lot of assumptions based on her solely getting into a vehicle.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2015 9:59 AM

2015-02-28T09:59:40-05:00

Based on your update I really hope she ropes in JAG and IG into this mess.

Welcome to the Army, here is a cluster f*** situation that will make you hate the Army before you even get to the force.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2015 10:06 AM

2015-02-28T10:06:56-05:00

This is the stupidest thing I have seen posted here, and there have been some doozies! I question the validity of this and if it is true...I question the mental state of every person involved in pushing this as a violation of fraternization! If this is true...this NCO needs his/her stripes removed, immediately for failing to exercise sound, judgement. I'm tired of reading about subpar and detrimental NCOs.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2015 10:57 AM

2015-02-28T10:57:25-05:00

Alright, so there's a whole lot of ignorance floating around here. I am the XO for an AIT Company, and deal with situations similar to this on a weekly basis.

First, TRADOC Regulation 350-6 is the primary guidance here, not AR 600-20. There are several important questions to be answered here:

1. Local Policy Letters have an effect on what privileges are allowed when, in addition to what TR 350-6 stipulates. What Policy Letters are in place at this SMs location, and is the Policy Letter punitive?
2. Did the Soldier complete a POV request? This MUST be approved by the Commander, or they cannot ride in a POV per TR 350-6.
3. Per TR 350-6, Phase IV Soldiers may not be granted an off-post pass as a Phase IV.
4. Per TR 350-6, Phase IV and Phase V Soldiers may not drive or ride in a POV. Phase V+ may.

There isn't enough information here to make a decision. People are getting emotionally worked up over an incomplete story.

If you come into my AO and attempt to sign out a Phase IV or Phase V to ride in your POV and that Soldier doesn't have a POV pass, they're not getting in your vehicle. Period. I don't care if you're a civilian, an SES, or an O-8. This environment does not allow mistakes. And my PSGs know 350-6 and 15th RSB Policy Letter 17 backwards and forwards - their job depends on it.

I highly doubt this actually has anything to do with fraternization, and everything to do with a PVT (and possibly his or her parent) not wanting to follow the rules.

Lastly, the Article 15 will have to make it through both the BN paralegal and BDE legal. If legal at the SMs location is anything like legal here, the Soldier will not be receiving an unjust Article 15. And if they were, I hope TDS would advise them to request Court Martial.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2015 11:05 AM

2015-02-28T11:05:05-05:00

Absent any other relevant facts, whether the parent is an Officer or Senior NCO this is not fraternization. The PSG, specially if he is a Drill Instructor, needs and on the spot correction by the 1SG and CO CDR. If the Company Commander pushes the UCMJ, he needs to get his head out of his rear end, and relieved from command.

Like everything in life, there may be two sides to the story. Are there any other facts to the situation? If the trainee is using his/her parent as leverage to slack off or to take advantage of the system, the Chain of Command has the responsibility to address the conduct. However, the Chain of Command must be smart addressing the conduct as dereliction of duty or some sort of other charge, instead of fraternization.

As I stated earlier, the answer to the issue as articulated without other facts, this not fraternization.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2015 11:26 AM

2015-02-28T11:26:37-05:00

Sounds like the PSG is an idiot. It is not fraternization if they are family, especially her father.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2015 11:34 AM

2015-02-28T11:34:39-05:00

Tell me this is a joke...

Response by SGT Craig Northacker made Feb 28 at 2015 12:51 PM

2015-02-28T12:51:03-05:00

There are two sides to every story. As a father, I would like to see my daughter. As an NCO in a training unit, I could see a ripple effect on morale and potential backblast from her peers if she is perceived to get special privileges. AIT was only 8 weeks long when I went through it at Polk, and if the Dad already saw her 3 times that seems to be more than enough for the both of them. What is not stated is whether or not she pulled her weight for shared duties with the rest of the unit.
As a father, I also have to wonder about the judgement of her father interfering with a training program that has been established for many years. I am as sympathetic to individuals as anyone when it comes to silliness in the military-I have continuously fought for the underdogs - but she also disobeyed a direct order, which is an offense. I have been out since 1979 so things may have changed. I believe the one who instigated the problem was her father who allowed this situation to escalate. His bad, in my book, unless there were other significant issues involved not disclosed in the story.

Response by LTC David Boggs made Feb 28 at 2015 1:42 PM

2015-02-28T13:42:51-05:00

I wondered whose running the Army now and it's peacetime BS, uniform changes, haircuts ect. ect. Somethings never change know matter when you served

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2015 2:15 PM

2015-02-28T14:15:18-05:00

I attended my daughter's graduation from basic training at Ft Sill. I was welcomed by her cadre and there was no issue with my being an officer. IMHO this case should bring to light a problem that exists in the chain of command. My hope is that command will recognize the frivolity of this recommendation, exhonorate the AIT Soldier and provide training to the PSG and subsequent chain of command on appropriate application of fraternization policy.

Response by CSM Mark Gerecht made Feb 28 at 2015 4:41 PM

2015-02-28T16:41:27-05:00

SSG Burns,
I saw your question when it was posted and wanted to respond then but held back because I did not want to respond from an emotional perspective. I also run a site dedicated to mentoring and sharing lessons learned called http://www.ASKTOP.net so I decided to do the research and look at the issue from all sides. Believe it or not there is more this question then a Yes/No response when it is looked at in its totality. My bottom-line after the research was that Commanders have a wide array of tools to use in situations like this. If the only way to resolve the issue is recommend an Article 15, I would argue there is a larger problem within the unit. I would not want to be the Commander, 1SG, and Platoon Sergeant that prevented me from seeing my child because I was a senior member of the military and it violated the fraternization policy. Now this assumes we have all the facts and the Soldier/Parent were acting appropriately and professionally. If you want to see my in depth response along with regulatory extracts please follow this link:

http://asktop.net/articles/ait-soldier-is-ordered-by-platoon-sergeant-not-to-get-into-a-car-with-father-an-officer-because-it-is-fraternization/

My apologies for the delayed response but I trust you will find the article useful.
Respectfully,
Mark Gerecht

AskTOP.net - Leader Development for Army Professionals

Leader Development for Army Professionals

Response by PFC Tom Cater made Feb 28 at 2015 4:59 PM

2015-02-28T16:59:02-05:00

I was enlisted and my Father was an O-6. Nobody said anything when he surprised my Basic unit by just showing up. They called The entire Co. to attention. Any other time when i went to my duty station, he came and picked me up for say lunch and no one had any problem with it!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2015 5:12 PM

2015-02-28T17:12:05-05:00

It seems to me that the PSG does not want to get egg on their face so they are trying to make it out to be something when it is not. Family is family and no one can stop you from seeing them or spending time with them.

Response by CDR Michael Goldschmidt made Feb 28 at 2015 6:30 PM

2015-02-28T18:30:43-05:00

Total BS. A family relationship already exists. End transmission.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2015 6:38 PM

2015-02-28T18:38:41-05:00

Pre-existing relationship.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 1 at 2015 10:42 AM

2015-03-01T10:42:02-05:00

UCMJ Action?! I think would demand a court martial at this point.

And does anyone know what her father is saying/doing about this? The father side of me would be demanding answers.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 1 at 2015 2:17 PM

2015-03-01T14:17:27-05:00

This situation is so asinine I can not believe it. However, it sounds like the PSG is building these "recommendations" but keeping it in a local file. I can't see any commander taking this serious besides doing all they can to remove that toxic leadership out of their company.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2015 11:00 AM

2015-03-03T11:00:13-05:00

So if you apply the above reasoning along with the ever elusive common sense, the parent-child relationship is not fraternization per se.

Response by Col Joseph Lenertz made Mar 3 at 2015 12:23 PM

2015-03-03T12:23:21-05:00

There can be no expectation that father and daughter (or son) will refrain from a personal relationship. One exists and will continue. It is just amazing the lack of judgment the PSG has shown. He needs serious counseling, and any charges against the soldier need to be dropped immediately.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2015 11:29 AM

2015-03-04T11:29:44-05:00

Sounds as silly as the LT who denied an airman emergency leave when his father died because he had just returned fro leave.

Response by Lt Col Mark DeVore made Mar 4 at 2015 11:29 AM

2015-03-04T11:29:52-05:00

What a great way to discourage the daughters of fathers in the military from serving. What idiot pursued these charges? Did the company cmdr know?

Response by CW2 Eric Scott made Mar 4 at 2015 11:38 AM

2015-03-04T11:38:15-05:00

Not even close.

Response by SGT Joy Turpin made Mar 4 at 2015 11:47 AM

2015-03-04T11:47:03-05:00

This actually can be considered fraternization because the Soldier is still in a TRADOC environment. Once she has graduated AIT and is in her unit, it would no longer be considered fraternizing. The Soldier AND her father should have adhered to the PSGs orders.

Response by LTC Paul Heinlein made Mar 4 at 2015 8:45 PM

2015-03-04T20:45:21-05:00

That is BS. Fraternization does not apply to family relationships. The Commander that signs that UCMJ action can probably expect a relief for cause OER.

Response by PVT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 8 at 2015 8:38 AM

2015-03-08T08:38:18-04:00

I had someone in my platoon picked up by there father who was a commissioned officer. This was not even a week ago I'm still in ait.

Response by SSG Matthew Moffit made Mar 11 at 2015 11:32 AM

2015-03-11T11:32:41-04:00

Relationship was in place and take priority in this situation.

Response by MSgt Allan Vrboncic made Mar 11 at 2015 11:37 AM

2015-03-11T11:37:36-04:00

PSG needs the definition of Fraternization explained to them.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 11 at 2015 11:43 AM

2015-03-11T11:43:54-04:00

Some PSG's are BEYOND RIDICULOUS!!! I had one that was not so bueno, let me tell you. I was glad when I left AIT. Unfortunately, about a year and a half later, she was my PSG when I served in Iraq. I can remember seeing her at the bus station to pick me up and I was PRAYING "Good LORD let her not call my name." AND dammit, she did. She made it absolutely horrible in Iraq as well. Why she didn't like me, I still to this day have no idea. But everything that she did... for ex. making us run around our FOB, DURING WAR TIME, IN IRAQ, singing cadence. Just insane. She was actually relieved of her duties there. I will never forget her name, face... Till this day, I wish I could run into her now that we are both civilians.

I guarantee you this PSG is just making her life hell because of who her father is. Just beyond ridiculous here. Bullshit. Complete and utter Bullshit.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 11 at 2015 12:05 PM

2015-03-11T12:05:21-04:00

Simply put - it's not fraternization.

With that being said, I'd like to know why, after allowing the soldier to be picked up by her father three times without any problems, that it is now a major problem (no pun intended)?

Is the PSG receiving pressure from his / her chain of command?

Is the PSG trying to assert his / her authority just because he / she can?

Is the PSG trying to cover his / her "fourth point of contact" because this person is close to retirement?

I believe that the PSG is receiving pressure from the chain of command.

Inquiring minds want to know.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 11 at 2015 12:07 PM

2015-03-11T12:07:26-04:00

It often amazes me what people will do out of spite.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 11 at 2015 12:09 PM

2015-03-11T12:09:12-04:00

This is stupid the DS is just being an idiot.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 11 at 2015 12:16 PM

2015-03-11T12:16:25-04:00

This is ridiculous. It's her father. He works on post. Gotta use the common sense aka "the smell test". Is there something else with this PSG? Is he known for this sort of thing?

Response by COL Mikel J. Burroughs made Mar 11 at 2015 12:43 PM

2015-03-11T12:43:14-04:00

I think the PSG needs to use some common sense. Too many times I've seen soldiers (NCO and Commissioned Officer ) try to interpret regulations or make a stand on an issue that just doesn't pass the "common sense" test. Total waste of manpower and time. Concentrate on the issues that count.

Response by 1SG Frank Rocha made Mar 11 at 2015 4:24 PM

2015-03-11T16:24:09-04:00

That's a ridiculous claim by the PSG. Even two enlisted personnel getting married and one of them subsequently becomes an officer isn't fraternization due to a pre-existing relationship. This soldiers situation obviously meets this criteria. When the JAG, or her CO for that matter, see's that it is her father to whom the PSG speaks of then this PSG should have a lot of explaining to do.

EDIT: According to DA Pam 600-35, Para 2-8, AR 600-20 Para 4-15 would seem to prohibit this relationship, (which is what I suspect the PSG was going for). However, it goes on to state "The intent of the policy is not to disrupt existing family relationships."

Seems like the PSG acted with a little too much haste.

Response by SSG Ike Phelan made Mar 11 at 2015 5:12 PM

2015-03-11T17:12:08-04:00

I was platoon Sargent at AIT for a little while and an instructor and if you do your research you will find that it is not an issue you just need to fill out a form and turn it in to the chain of command it is not to stop any one from seeing their family or friends it is to simply make sure the chain of command is aware of the relationship and that a member of their platoon/ company will be seen with a person outside their training team during off duty hours. Of course this does not apply to graduations and short term events this is more for if you are training at a base were a friend or family member is stationed and you want to spend time with them during your off duty hours. This is not just for lower enlisted it also applies to NCO's and officers who are in TRADOC environment. Please do your research before answering these type of questions this is one of the main reasons most people use this site is to get educated answers from people who have done the research. Do not answer these questions blindly and mislead someone.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 11 at 2015 7:39 PM

2015-03-11T19:39:20-04:00

Seems like the Major needs to step in and take hold of this situation. There must be more here and although I do not know the specific rules, it is hard to believe that the Major would allow this to continue since it is obviously moved to the position of threatening, intimidating and career ending.
Even if this was wrong, it seems as though an intelligent person would have sat down with the junior person, explained the difference between right and wrong and how perception deals with that.

Then if need be, what would a counseling be if not to help the person explore and understand what is an effective way for them to be with their own father.

If this is the all of the issue, there are some things here that are more wrong than meet the eye. Someone needs to step in, maybe a judicial review would be good. I have seen many who have actually requested mast in the Navy, then get the truth out on the table. Go through the truth seeking process, get it all out and then correct the situation. This is a great opportunity for all to learn. Far less an opportunity to end careers.

In the Navy we have different procedures to request mast or courts martial reviews and the like. Depends on the type of command, the directives by the ISIC and on and on. That is why as to the procedure, I am not as familiar in the Air Force or the Army. Even joint duties this was not an area I was ever a part. Just know that it is time something be done.

Response by SPC Todd Hanson made Mar 11 at 2015 7:45 PM

2015-03-11T19:45:51-04:00

Any update on this?

Response by SSgt Randy Saulsberry made Mar 11 at 2015 9:10 PM

2015-03-11T21:10:44-04:00

It's not fraternization because they are family. Further more they have no senior subordinate relationship, but I am not surprised that senior personnel would do something like this. I've dealt with something similar. While I was a instructor at NAS Pensacola sometimes servicemembers would come back to do advanced avionics courses. now these would be NCOs and SNCOs but we were instructions that we were not allowed to hang with them because they were students and we're were instructors. They were not in our school house. My Gysgt came through a year after I got there. And I was not allowed to hang with the Marine that played a large roll in my development as Marine. I didn't care and hung with him anyway.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 11 at 2015 9:27 PM

2015-03-11T21:27:47-04:00

I hope my post doesn't repeat itself, but RP froze up when I tried to reply previously

Fraternization rules do not apply when there is a previous existing relationship, so a Father/ Daughter relationship does not apply. The same would be true for a married enlisted couple if one half is selected for OCS. It sounds like this AIT staff needs some guidance.

Response by PO2 Pualani Ralph made Mar 11 at 2015 9:59 PM

2015-03-11T21:59:53-04:00

That is not fraternization by definition.

It is a prior relationship, and its her father for crying out loud. I would love to meet that PSG.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 11 at 2015 11:15 PM

2015-03-11T23:15:59-04:00

How can this be considered fraternization? There is exceptions for couples that were married when they were both enlisted but now that one is an officer it is allowed. This is her father for heavens sake don't twist the regulations to better suit yourself.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2015 12:33 AM

2015-03-12T00:33:29-04:00

I see how someone could see this situation as fraternization; however, the Soldier cannot help the fact that her father is an Officer and as thus should not be penalized for it since their relationship was pre-existing prior to her joining the Service. Now, if the AIT Soldier was problematic or had pending disciplinary actions against her, then not being able to go on the pass is more easily justifiable.

Response by PFC Patricia Bowen made Mar 12 at 2015 12:53 AM

2015-03-12T00:53:32-04:00

I think that this is just crazy! It can't be real!

Response by CPT Karen Nichols McAbee made Mar 12 at 2015 3:00 PM

2015-03-12T15:00:15-04:00

My son is enlisting in the Air Force upon graduation in June. My title of "mother" seriously trumps my title of "Captain". I'd like to meet the NCO with the intestinal fortitude to try to stop ME from picking up my son. He/she will discover the true definition of "Mama Bear"

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2015 7:33 PM

2015-03-12T19:33:56-04:00

The updated situation is a little different.
1) If the PFC is receiving preferential treatment, i.e. leaving with her father when the other AIT students are not allowed to leave - then yes, this could be fraternization.
2) If the student is authorized a pass - along with the other AIT students in the same phase of training - but instructed not to get in any POV and does - then it is not fraternization - but failure to obey and order or regulation. (depending if the order was given orally or is in a regulation).

The issue here really is not the fraternization - it's the failure to obey an order or regulation to not ride in a POV. If the PFC was authorized a pass, she should have taken a taxi to meet her dad at the PX or off base, whatever was within the limits of her pass. Regardless of where they met - she should not have gotten in a POV. I find the father at fault more than the PFC - the father should have checked with her chain of command and ensured he was not violating any rules before he ever signed her out. I am assuming she was on authorized pass since her father signed her out three times previously.

Judgments and rules interpretation are always, if not impossible, to make when you do not have the whole story. In the way it is described in the update - the Soldier should be held accountable. Not because she went with her dad; but because she got into a POV when ordered not to.

Response by SFC William Goodwin made Mar 13 at 2015 2:25 PM

2015-03-13T14:25:09-04:00

It is family member and not consider Fraternization I went through this with my Dad and it is not an issue.

Response by PO1 John Meyer, CPC made Mar 14 at 2015 10:42 AM

2015-03-14T10:42:54-04:00

This is just as stupid as people complaining of PDA when service members come up from a deployment and want to give some love to their loved ones when in uniform.

And yes... I have heard of it happening.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 14 at 2015 11:01 AM

2015-03-14T11:01:38-04:00

Being a Navy Master at Arms (MP equivalent), we have this concept called 'totality of circumstances', where one basically sums-up ALL elements in order to try to make the best judgment call or educated guess on before deciding to charge one with punitive article. Getting hung on one or two elements and disregarding all others shows narrow-minded thinking of a coward or some kind of a control freak.

This is a father-daughter bonding time and should be honored as such for God's sake. The two did not meet in the line of duty and began relationship, but are blood-relatives. Extra caution however should be taken that their time together would not impede either one's role in performing their official duties or cause undue influences.

This case is a disgrace to their family and I believe deserves the IG or even congressional involvement, just my .02

Response by SSgt June Worden made Mar 14 at 2015 11:14 AM

2015-03-14T11:14:14-04:00

So much for the concept of family first...

Response by SSgt Stevan Auldridge made Mar 14 at 2015 12:16 PM

2015-03-14T12:16:35-04:00

The difference between intent and rule of law.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2015 9:09 PM

2015-03-16T21:09:43-04:00

Not even close. They are blood. The PSG is way off base and completely out of line. I hope her Major father tears him a new one. Is this PSG going after the few, but existing, enlisted/officer married couples? That's more towards fraternization than this is.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2015 2:09 AM

2015-03-19T02:09:15-04:00

This is one of the dumbest excuses I have ever heard.

This doesn't habe anything to do with fraternization.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2015 2:28 PM

2015-03-21T14:28:57-04:00

As a previous standing relationship between father and daughter, it isn't fraternization. What I assume would be that she wasn't phased appropriately to get a pass.

Response by SFC Russell Campbell made Mar 22 at 2015 7:00 AM

2015-03-22T07:00:52-04:00

Gee, must be the "New" Army. When I went through OSUT at Benning there was no such thing as a pass PERIOD! Her father should have known better and set her straight that just the fact of going home on the "weekends" to daddy's house could be mis-construed as favoritism /fraternization and that as long as she was in the course she "ain't coming home".
That said, my father, a WWII and Korea Marine who got shot in the ass in 52 and decided to become an MD on his second GI bill, then joined the Air force in 70 and became a flight surgeon and then went to Vietnam in 71 (can you imagine what an airman's ass would be like if he tried to ride sick-call with a former Gunny as his physician?) and ended his career after 91 and flying in a 52 during Desert Storm would say; "Do NOT attempt to utilize my rank and years of service to garner some kind of favorable actions on the part of the Drill Instructors, I will hand you your ass if I hear anything like that! You make your own way in the military and their are NO excuses for attempting to ride your parent's coat tails." I never told my Drill Sergeants who or what my father was.
My parents came to visit me a day before my graduation. I was in the chow hall in Harmony Church (B-10-2 Vanguard of Victory) and as fate would have it I was pulling KP. My Drill Sergeant, SFC Christostomo, came back into the kitchen and barked at me to report to him. I did. Standing at attention, I was asked why I did not inform him that my father was O-6 and decorated multi-war vet. I replied: Drill Sergeant, I didn't tell you because you didn't ask, Drill Sergeant! I was immediately told to "Push Ft Benning to the Gulf of Mexico" which I assumed the correct stance and proceeded to "knock out" 4 count push-ups. Drill Sergeant Christostomo then proceeded to brief me as to the fact that I would be very shortly consuming the evening meal with my parents directly across from the "Drill's Table" Upon being given the command to recover, I moved out swiftly and reported to my father's table and executed the evening meal with haste. Upon my parents leaving, the DFAC was called to attention and my father left. I was immediately called over to the "Drill's Table" and asked the same question that my Drill Sergeant asked me in the kitchen. I gave the same answer and got smoked by the Senior Drill, SFC Goodine. After "Conditioning my mind and my body" I was released back to my platoon.
I did not want to see my parents again until after graduation. Thank God. Bottom line, my folks were allowed to see me but in a correct military fashion,AND THAT's WHAT THE SOLDIER IN QUESTIONS DADDY DIDN"T DO!!! Nor was I allowed any real special privilege other than getting out of what was left of KP in exchange for getting my butt reamed and smoked by every Drill around and doing a lot of push-ups to boot AND NO, there was no thought or mention of getting off post and hanging around the folks, PERIOD!

Response by SGT John Wesley made May 15 at 2015 6:06 AM

2015-05-15T06:06:13-04:00

I'd say someone above that PSg needs to put a boot up his/her a$$

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 22 at 2015 3:46 PM

2015-06-22T15:46:00-04:00

Very absurd. She is denied the opportunity to be picked up by a family member because he is an officer!? I would take it to the IG or JAG! (Caveat-sometimes when we hear stories like this there are things missing. For example maybe the soldier had other misconduct and name-dropped with her father's rank when confronted with it. Im not saying it happened that way, but you never know what other facts to the story there is)

Response by LCpl Mark Lefler made Jul 6 at 2015 9:32 PM

2015-07-06T21:32:07-04:00

That doesn't seem logical to me, the father maybe an officer but he's also the parent, a member of said soldiers immediate family.

Response by SGT Rick Ash made Jul 6 at 2015 9:47 PM

2015-07-06T21:47:37-04:00

No. A precedent had been set with the three previous pickups. And, the Father is not in the same unit. Somebody come up with the reg that prohibits a military father who is also an officer from picking up his enlisted daughter?

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 7 at 2015 12:35 PM

2015-07-07T12:35:39-04:00

I wonder what this nut would do when the AIT and officer relationship is between husband and wife.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Aug 14 at 2015 10:19 PM

2015-08-14T22:19:55-04:00

So this happened to me this last week. I am TDY to a training squadron taking a course. One of my extremely close friends just PCS'd to the squadron I am am attached to. She is NOT an instructor. We are both MSgts (E7) and have known each other since we were both SrA (E4) and have served at two separate assignments together including the assignment she just PCS'ed from. For use to have lunch together, she had to get a letter signed by the unit commander (O5) approving it as a pre-existing relationship.

Response by SSG Stephen Arnold made Aug 14 at 2015 10:31 PM

2015-08-14T22:31:52-04:00

[img]http://motherhaus.com/wp-content/uploads//2009/08/i-see-stupid-people-590x395.jpg[/img]

Response by CPT Ahmed Faried made Aug 14 at 2015 10:41 PM

2015-08-14T22:41:41-04:00

False. HEAT rounds incoming for this overzealous NCO

Response by TSgt Melissa Post made Aug 15 at 2015 1:29 AM

2015-08-15T01:29:24-04:00

It's not her fault that her father is an officer and was one before she joined. I think this is a load of bull.

Response by TSgt Melissa Post made Aug 15 at 2015 1:34 AM

2015-08-15T01:34:44-04:00

First thought, how does a single lightning bolt hit 40 people?

Response by Capt Christian D. Orr made Aug 17 at 2015 1:28 AM

2015-08-17T01:28:02-04:00

What utter horse hockey. That PSG needs to be beaten with a sharp stick. When I graduated from enlisted Basic Military Training, there were plenty of fellow grads with commissioned family members in attendance, and when I graduated from Officer Training School, there were plenty of fellow grads with enlisted family members in attendance.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 17 at 2015 9:22 AM

2015-08-17T09:22:43-04:00

I wore my class A's to my son's graduation and had no problem,even told the Drills that they did a great job in straightening my son out. That was 12yrs ago and my son is now a SFC.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 18 at 2015 11:51 AM

2015-08-18T11:51:28-04:00

The only caveat to my initial answer is that if he is in her chain of command or in the chain of command of someone with influence on her, then it could be fraternization. However that is a different issue and one of the two of them needs to not be in that command.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 18 at 2015 12:46 PM

2015-08-18T12:46:11-04:00

Without consulting the Army publications...and a couple of "sea lawyers"; I'd have to call this out. Granted, it may not be the most supportive thing Dear Old Dad can do to foster good relations for her in the unit, but a punishable offense this is not.

On a side note, I had a shipmate whose parents were BOTH Marine Corps O-6s...his report to me was that going home on leave could get "awkward"...I mean, I can just see it, "Dad...I mean, Colonel...I mean Sir...may I borrow the minivan?"-LOL

Response by MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P made Dec 10 at 2015 5:37 PM

2015-12-10T17:37:08-05:00

Had a similar situation when I was in Basic. A dad came to pick up his son for pre-authorized base liberty (we were graduating the next day). One of our TI's made what could be called a "tactical error" in judgement and tried to show his arse by arbitrarily prohibiting said Airman from going on base liberty.

Imagine our surprise when the barracks door exploded inward and low and behold there stood one very pissed off MG looking for a particular TI and a specific trainee.

I won't bore you with details but suffice it to say the entire Flight received base liberty that day.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 29 at 2016 11:22 AM

2016-07-29T11:22:28-04:00

I hardly ever pull rank either, but if it were me with my step-son, I would request a meeting with the AIT CO, the PSG, and a nice lawyer from the JAG office, and I allow the PSG to detail why he thinks a father picking up a child is fraternization and a UCMJ violation... then I would would firmly explain to the PSG why he is FOS.

Response by CPO Randy Francis made Jul 29 at 2016 11:53 AM

2016-07-29T11:53:57-04:00

Now I remember why I left the Army and joined the Navy.

Response by SSG Edward Joy made Jul 29 at 2016 11:56 AM

2016-07-29T11:56:18-04:00

The major should have a chat with his commander. A one way chat.

Response by CW4 Leonard White made Jul 29 at 2016 1:30 PM

2016-07-29T13:30:35-04:00

I can't believe a PSG would be so stupid...when is his chain-of-command to straighten him out?

Response by SGT Myles Taylor made Jul 29 at 2016 2:02 PM

2016-07-29T14:02:29-04:00

Sadly I had the same happen to me in Hawaii when I was a specialist. My squad leader found out I was spending time with a family member who was a staff sergeant in the marines and tried to put a stop to it via counselings and ordering me not to. I ended up using the open door policy to my commander and 1SG and they got the SGT to back off on it and let my spend time with family also on the island.

Response by COL Louis Jordan made Jul 29 at 2016 2:50 PM

2016-07-29T14:50:28-04:00

This PSG needs to be counseled about being dumb in public

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 29 at 2016 2:59 PM

2016-07-29T14:59:55-04:00

We can play rock, paper rank then use our god given brain and move on.

Response by SFC Don Ward made Jul 29 at 2016 3:23 PM

2016-07-29T15:23:49-04:00

So, a recommendation for UCMJ is not actually an AR 15, it's just a counseling statement. Once that counseling goes forward, it has to have JAG sign off. Do they really think any lawyer is going to sign off on this. Just goes to prove "Common sense is a flower that doesn't grow in everyone's garden."

Response by SSG John Jensen made Jul 29 at 2016 4:47 PM

2016-07-29T16:47:03-04:00

Family out-ranks Army
Early days of Korea, members of 40th ID on occupation duty in Japan, were transferred to Korea, they wrote letters home about it, Moms sent letters to local newspapers, problem was the Army hadn't announced it yet, Army threaten soldiers with court-martial (disclosing secrets??) Soldiers write letters home about the threatened Court-Martials. Moms send letters to Congressmen. Court-Martial don't happen.

Response by COL Peter Aubrey made Jul 29 at 2016 5:44 PM

2016-07-29T17:44:49-04:00

Stupid! Her father should go see the chain of command - the PSG shouldnt be leading troops. If his/her judgement is that far off balance.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 29 at 2016 10:50 PM

2016-07-29T22:50:43-04:00

It's a family relationship. Let the Major see his child.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2016 10:32 AM

2016-07-30T10:32:08-04:00

False, family is not considered fraternization even if they are currently in the service.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2016 10:35 AM

2016-07-30T10:35:43-04:00

I think it really just comes down to whether or not there is a policy in place prohibiting IET Soldier's from socializing with permanent party. Spending time with family is never frowned upon. I mean, what do you say to someone who's spouse is on officer and then they decide to enlist. What, you can't be married anymore? Come on now!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2016 11:23 AM

2016-07-30T11:23:53-04:00

Pretty sure the MAJ was the Soldiers father long before the soldier was a SM.... This cannot be a real situation.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2016 12:41 PM

2016-07-30T12:41:15-04:00

She's an AIT student. Prohibited relationships include Cadre/ Students. He's stationed there, ie Cadre!! It gives the perception that she is gaining favor and influence by those who don't realize that is her father. If he wants to pick her up, then change out of uniform first. Besides, why is an ait student even allowed to be picked up in the first place!?!?!

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2016 1:06 PM

2016-07-30T13:06:20-04:00

Some TRADOC posts have policy for trainees accepting rides and/or favors from regular soldiers on post. Can you understand how this came about?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2016 1:33 PM

2016-07-30T13:33:23-04:00

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Don't sign the art 15 and say you want a trial. They will drop it.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2016 1:58 PM

2016-07-30T13:58:21-04:00

Negative. First, she is on pass and the officer that picked her up was family. Now, did her father pull rank to GET her that pass or to make it happen? No? Ok so all he did was pick her up to take her on pass. Nope...not fraternization.

Response by CW4 Larry Curtis made Jul 30 at 2016 2:03 PM

2016-07-30T14:03:41-04:00

You're kidding, right? I think I would pay his Company Commander a visit and straighten this mess out if having a conversation with the PSG directly didn't yield any results. Or if I wanted to be a little more discrete about it, I might have a chat with his First Sergeant. His first-line supervision should probably be made aware of this. I think the PSG has stepped in a big pile of poo on this.

Response by SSG Ray Petersen made Jul 30 at 2016 3:52 PM

2016-07-30T15:52:17-04:00

Read DA PAM 600-35.2-8, Paragraph 4-15

Response by SGT Leanne Gray made Jul 30 at 2016 4:20 PM

2016-07-30T16:20:05-04:00

Simple solution - contest the article 15 by requesting court martial. Would love to see the expression on senior leaders' faces when some idiot PSG tries to CM a kid for "fraternizing" with their own parents.

Response by CPT Tom Fawls made Jul 30 at 2016 4:28 PM

2016-07-30T16:28:11-04:00

Seriously?!?! If I was that Major, that PSG would be standing at attention in front of his entire platoon getting himself ripped a new one.

Response by TSgt Ted Fritchlee made Jul 30 at 2016 4:40 PM

2016-07-30T16:40:16-04:00

The author of this article on the issue discusses this topic very well. The bottom line is - it's a judgement call.
http://asktop.net/articles/ait-soldier-is-ordered-by-platoon-sergeant-not-to-get-into-a-car-with-father-an-officer-because-it-is-fraternization/?all=1

AIT Soldier is Ordered by Platoon Sergeant not to get into a Car with Father (an Officer),...

Research on the Subject I have reviewed everything I can find with regard to fraternization with regard to Army Regulations, TRADOC Regulations, the Manual

Response by LCpl Jeff Moore made Jul 30 at 2016 6:25 PM

2016-07-30T18:25:52-04:00

So she can not recieve xmas gift from her dad. My understanding is they would need to charge the father also.

I would take a court martial vs njp. And have them call her father and state in a court martial she can no longer she her fathet cause he a officer and she enlisted.

If i was the father I call in the psg and chew his ass out and then threaten him with njp for being disrespectful towards a commissioned officer. And scutty his career

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2016 6:30 PM

2016-07-30T18:30:57-04:00

Possibly during TRADOC this could be an issue, but after that, definitely should be a non-issue.

People got really tired of this one shit-bag having his uncle come see him all the time even though non of the rest of the recruits could call or see family.

The justification was, well his Uncle is a Mastery Gunnery Sergeant.

My response was, I don't fucking care if he is Jesus Christ all mighty!

Everyone will be the same in TRADOC!

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2016 7:01 PM

2016-07-30T19:01:48-04:00

People like to charge fraternization almost as much as they like to claim something is racist. The regulations are pretty clear. Fraternization is an unacceptable relationship between enlisted and officer that will result in a negative impact on the 'good order and discipline' of a unit, could be perceived as providing an unacceptable favoritism or criteria the unit commander identifies. As this is a father and daughter/familial relationship, then there is no fraternization, unless the daughter is receiving preferential treatment and the commander has addressed this with both parties. No commander, in their right mind, will follow the PSG's request and most likely will educate the PSG on the fraternization guidelines.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2016 7:19 PM

2016-07-30T19:19:52-04:00

I was stationed at Fort Leonard Wood and Fort Sam Houston and I worked with Basic and AIT Trainees extensively. On both posts, for every training battalion, no (non-prior service) Soldier was permitted to be in a POV without written permission from his or her Commander. The issue probably isn't fraternization, it's probably getting into a POV when counseled not too.

Response by COL Brian Shea made Jul 30 at 2016 7:35 PM

2016-07-30T19:35:12-04:00

This is beyond stupid. I picked my son up from BCT and drove him to AIT. He got a kick out of having his DS salute his dad. :) Visited him at AIT as well. Cadre both places were nothing but professional. This is a singular issue with this NCO, not a reflection on cadre as a whole.

Response by LTC John Wilson made Jul 30 at 2016 7:48 PM

2016-07-30T19:48:47-04:00

It is not fraternization if it is a family member. It becomes fraternization if the enlisted and officer not related were having a personal affair or If the officer shows favoritism to an enlisted member in his chain of command and allows special privileges. I picked my daughter up at Graduation and we spent the day together as family. When we returned to base, there was no problems and we had a wonderful time. Some individuals just try to interpret the policy according to their own emotions and not the actual policy.

Response by SSG Kyle Geller made Jul 30 at 2016 9:11 PM

2016-07-30T21:11:54-04:00

family doesn't fall in the category of fraternization, and unless the PSG could prove that there was something appropriate he should tread very carefully.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2016 9:52 PM

2016-07-30T21:52:20-04:00

Sounds more like an instructor trying to settle some sort of vendetta rather than an attempt at corrective action. It is her father, not some boyfriend. Now, if she were a lower enlisted troop and it wasn't her father, I could see some outrage...but, it's been my experience that if you speak up about inappropriate relationshios, it is YOUR career who will be hurt, not theirs.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2016 9:53 PM

2016-07-30T21:53:19-04:00

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2016 9:58 PM

2016-07-30T21:58:56-04:00

How can they be serious... It is her father. Does that mean as long as she is enlisted she can have no contact with him.... Are they CRAZY or just plain stupid...? Fraternization can only be applied when there is NO PRIOR relationship, and there is a direct link in the Chain of Command that could cause undue influence...!!! Sounds to me like the PSG has a Hard On for this girl... JMHO

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2016 10:05 PM

2016-07-30T22:05:32-04:00

The PSG is an ass clown.

Response by SSG Mark Franzen made Jul 30 at 2016 11:46 PM

2016-07-30T23:46:54-04:00

It not at it's her Father.

Response by SPC Tom Walsh made Jul 31 at 2016 4:28 AM

2016-07-31T04:28:13-04:00

The officer in question is a blood relative. A PARENT. This pre-existing relationship trumps rank. Especially when it does not interfere with the training schedule.

Response by SFC Robo Obor made Jul 31 at 2016 6:35 AM

2016-07-31T06:35:23-04:00

Too much NCO bashing in these scenario's. Trust me, 95% of NCO's have and use common sense. Post real stuff..

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2016 8:24 AM

2016-07-31T08:24:48-04:00

If the PSG continues to push it, the AIT soldier may want to talk to ADC (Area Defense Counsel) regarding the "what/what does not actually qualifies as fraternization regarding family members. Been in the military nearly 20 years and but never once have I heard of folks being threatened w/legal & admin action simply because their family members occasionally arrived to congratulate & support them during official functions (i.e. graduations, formal ceremonies, etc).

Not to mention, sounds like "the unit had already previously approved" prior visitations and now, the PSG is attempting to push for UCMJ & admin action? Don't see this ending well so well for the PSG. Hopefully the troop is able to seek out the ADC (which does not work for the installation/therefore away from undue influence) and gets the help they need.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2016 8:34 AM

2016-07-31T08:34:26-04:00

this soldier needs to speak with the SJAG, unless the policy is clear that no soldier in AIT can be signed out by their parent then this young soldier is doing nothing wrong. The rank of her father is unimportant. In this case he is her father and that is it. Their BN EOA should have explained that to the CoC before a Art -15 recommendation was even written.

I have also picked up and signed out my daughter when she was in AIT before she graduated when I happened to be on the post she was training on.

This sounds like we do not have all the information.

Response by SPC(P) Patrick Westbrook made Jul 31 at 2016 9:33 AM

2016-07-31T09:33:06-04:00

This is why they are looking at doing DS instead of AIT psgs...the AIT psgs have no idea of what they are supposed to be doing...

Response by SSG Grant Hansen made Jul 31 at 2016 11:00 AM

2016-07-31T11:00:08-04:00

One of the guys in my AIT class way back in 1986 was married to a 2LT prior to enlisting in the Army.

According to this idiot PSG's way of thinking they should have been forced to get a divorce.

Response by SSG William Norris made Jul 31 at 2016 11:30 AM

2016-07-31T11:30:01-04:00

When the Soldier goes to JAG as they should, the JAG is going to laugh and probably tear the Article 15 up.

Response by SFC Rob Frisk made Jul 31 at 2016 11:33 AM

2016-07-31T11:33:54-04:00

Well, there goes Christmas! *sarcasm* that PSG is obviously a product of being promoted too soon.

Response by PO1 William Mims made Jul 31 at 2016 11:44 AM

2016-07-31T11:44:07-04:00

PSG needs to pull his head out of his 3rd point of contact...it's not fraternization if it's a family member.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2016 11:58 AM

2016-07-31T11:58:08-04:00

Not true my cousin is a ltc in the navey and would come pick me up on pass when I was in ait that is family.. He also came and renlisted me earlier this year he's been in for 23 years and I've been in for 4 there is no problem as long as they are family and not just friends or dateing

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2016 12:00 PM

2016-07-31T12:00:05-04:00

Is the relationship unduly familiar? He's her DAD. Additionally, their relationship existed before her military service began.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2016 12:24 PM

2016-07-31T12:24:12-04:00

That UCMJ is going to be thrown out. AR 600-20, 4-14 clearly states what constitutes as fraternization.

Response by CPO Albert Kennison made Jul 31 at 2016 12:27 PM

2016-07-31T12:27:25-04:00

Give me a break! Your going to discipline a female soldier for having her father pick her up, but they allow gays to openly walk on post hand in hand. WTF is happening to this world. Everyone needs to get a grip!!

Response by LTC Matthew Robinson made Jul 31 at 2016 12:30 PM

2016-07-31T12:30:26-04:00

This totally misses the point and spirit of fraternization. Someone in the chain of command needs to give the PSG a quick yank on the stack-n-swivel.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2016 1:03 PM

2016-07-31T13:03:20-04:00

I get that he is trying to do the right thing, albeit incorrectly. As a parent, I would politely pull this person aside......AND THEN PROCEED TO EAT THEIR SOUL. Again, politely of course. Because I am all sweetness and sunshine and sh1t.

Response by SFC Mark Buus made Jul 31 at 2016 1:04 PM

2016-07-31T13:04:48-04:00

Pre-existing family relationship. And no I do not see a Drill doing this. When I was a drill we had an SFC show up and ask if he could see his little brother, who was a trainee in our company. The SFC was about to deploy and wanted to see his little brother. We let him go with the PVT to evening chow and let them sit apart from the others and enjoy a meal together. We had a PVT whos dad was a Brigadier General....did we stop them from enjoying family day pass together? No. It's just heartless, petty, and stupid. And generally in real cases of fraternization, it is the ranking individual who bears most of the burden and blame. What were they going to do to the Major?

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2016 1:43 PM

2016-07-31T13:43:30-04:00

I was a CSM when my daughters went to training in the Coast Guard and the Army. I would tell this DS that she has lost her mind. I would then find her 1SG to make sure it does not happen in future.

Response by CPL Kevin Carns made Jul 31 at 2016 2:06 PM

2016-07-31T14:06:33-04:00

Not fraternization by any legal definition. But how many passes does an IET soldier get these days?

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2016 2:13 PM

2016-07-31T14:13:59-04:00

Take it up with higher

Response by PO3 Darryl Johnson made Jul 31 at 2016 2:21 PM

2016-07-31T14:21:54-04:00

I don't know about the Army but in the Navy we can't eat in the E-7 and above mess....we will never share living quarters with officers, but sharing a ride? That means a CO would never be able to car pool with his/her command Master Chief when they have to be at the same location. ..

On another note, PDA personal display of affection isn't permitted in uniform and we break that regulation at graduation, reenlistments, etc.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2016 2:56 PM

2016-07-31T14:56:32-04:00

If the PSG's only issue is fraternization then the Soldier should demand a court martial. AR 600-20 makes an explicit exception to the fraternization policy for pre-existing relationships. The PSG needs to get his facts straight. However, there could be other considerations like riding in a POV, where they're going, etc.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2016 3:12 PM

2016-07-31T15:12:32-04:00

Family is absolute priority. So long as she is not in a unit where he can influence her career or is not doing anything to aid her career, leave them alone. I had a friend whose father was a general. No one made it an issue. Frankly, I don't know why they're going after her instead of the unit contact her fathers command. And for that matter, I don't understand why a colonel or above hasn't intervened. This is a silly waste of command leadership time.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2016 3:14 PM

2016-07-31T15:14:21-04:00

According to 600-20, it's not fraternization because they have a prior family relationship.

With this logic, it will be fraternization when he goes home to visit for Christmas too. Can't have a Soldier sharing Easter ham with his little sister, mother, and *gasp* an Officer. My dad picked me up from my barracks at Airborne school and took me to get Dinner the night before I graduated. I was a Cadet, and he was an Officer. To even suggest that this was fraternization would be ridiculous.

I could understand if there were other issues associated, but it sounds like the MAJ is just picking up his kid while they're on pass during AIT. Which there is nothing wrong with this. For example, it would be an issue if the Trainee had their pass revoked, and their parent tried to use their rank and influence to take them away any way; but that does not appear to be the case here. Even if it was it would be an undue influence issue, not frat.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2016 3:17 PM

2016-07-31T15:17:46-04:00

Where is the First Sergeant in this situation?

Response by MGySgt Mike Bullard made Jul 31 at 2016 3:18 PM

2016-07-31T15:18:52-04:00

This is pure stupid. This is not fraternization. This sounds like a platoon sergeant that has a case of the ass with officers and is taking it out on one of his troops. Lack of professionalism, lack of maturity and lack of knowledge.

Response by SFC Bruce Pettengill made Jul 31 at 2016 3:25 PM

2016-07-31T15:25:53-04:00

The appears to be very old. Many times I would ask other soldiers what to the regulations say, when was the last time you read it? I would not accept any answer but black and white.
Next recommendation is not doing, I am sure when this was brought up to the commander, (because he is the only one that can punish) the Commander and 1SG laughed him out of the office, I would also imagine that since the PSG showed a total lack of good judgement here, he/she was relieved of their duties.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2016 3:29 PM

2016-07-31T15:29:13-04:00

Are they loosing their mind!! What is the recommendation by her PSG ? To divorce her dad? This people are getting ridiculous !!

Response by SGT Steve Hohman made Jul 31 at 2016 3:38 PM

2016-07-31T15:38:10-04:00

Today's Army. Enough said.

Response by 1SG Kevin Henderson made Jul 31 at 2016 3:46 PM

2016-07-31T15:46:15-04:00

I see common sense has once again failed.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2016 4:04 PM

2016-07-31T16:04:11-04:00

ARs are so obscure and poorly written. They do not get rewritten, just modified and unfortunately it leads to people making fools of themselves. I can't tell you how many times a Soldier told me to show them the regulation saying something specific. You find a blurb that says something along the lines of, if X,Y, or Z you Q, but if you G then A applies to Y and read down a few paragraphs that tell you to go up 10 pages then down 2 and so on and so on. The Army is getting dumber and dumber, like a copy of a copy of a copy. Common sense has become obsolete in decision making. I had a 1SG threaten me with UCMJ for dating a civilian who was roommates with a 2LT, not anywhere near being in my CoC. He said I could date her but I just couldn't go to her house. He also said I could not associate with friends I had in other branches who were officers I knew long before I joined the military. Command is who makes many of these instances interfere with good order by being idiots.

Response by SPC Tom Maddox made Jul 31 at 2016 4:15 PM

2016-07-31T16:15:37-04:00

I see the Army hasn't changed with it's ridiculous use of interpretation.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2016 4:15 PM

2016-07-31T16:15:41-04:00

It is not, relationships existing prior to enlistment do not count. I have a guy in my current unit who I was also was in AIT with who's father is a 2 star and he is a SGT, his family is a mix of enlisted and officers. What is supposed to do? Never associate with his siblings or father? That's why that rule is in place.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2016 4:17 PM

2016-07-31T16:17:56-04:00

It is not fraternization if a person is family or if there was a relationship establish prior to service.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2016 4:19 PM

2016-07-31T16:19:45-04:00

Whom ever this PSG IS NEEDS TO BE FIRED BECAUSE THATS HER DAMN FATHER AND THIS PSG IS A RETARD because you can't get her in trouble for that if her father her DAD IS AN OFFICERthis PSG is a damn retard and should be fired and look at the regulations better

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2016 4:28 PM

2016-07-31T16:28:56-04:00

Hopefully, we will not have this PSG or their chain of command in the Army much longer. I've heard and seen plenty of "dumbassery" in the military in my 30+ years of service, but this has to top it all. I too have a son in the military and have picked him up after basic training, Infantry AIT, and just last week, Airborne School. I no case has any Cadre even suggested that this is fraternization. Recommend the Father (Major) go visit the Company Commander, Platoon Leader, and PSG and have them explain how this situation falls anywhere near the definition of fraternization in terms of UCMJ. We don't need leadership like this in our Army...period!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2016 4:35 PM

2016-07-31T16:35:13-04:00

It's her father. That is NOT fraternization

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2016 4:44 PM

2016-07-31T16:44:01-04:00

Not sure what post your Soldier is on but, Fraternization policies are often added to on TRADOC posts. As far as I remember from my last visit permanent party and visiting TDY (ALC, SLC) your reminded of this policy and the "extra" emphasis thats applied to it on a training post.

As an example I googled "TRADOC and Fraternization" and found this which answers your question:
(True) at least in Monterey
*TRADOC Regulation 350-6
DLIFLC Phase IV restrictions and privileges.
h. Fraternization with any careerist enlisted of any service1, officer, cadre member, faculty member, teacher, or civilian employee of this installation is strictly forbidden in accordance with DLIFLC Policy Letter on Prohibited Relationships.

Which basically means that her/ Father who (if) he is a member of the installation needs to abide by the policy in place. Although as far as I remember requests usually can be put in through the CoC for visits that are in line with common sense at least that was the case last time I was at FT Huachuca.

It seems to me that with out all of the information you really don't know what the entire situation is. As it's possible that the SM was aware (more than likely) of such a policy and has ignored it, and now just been caught violating it. I would look for what ever post the SM is on and look for the policy governing socializing with IET or AIT Soldiers to get a clear answer.

Response by SSgt Kenneth Besosa made Jul 31 at 2016 4:48 PM

2016-07-31T16:48:08-04:00

First, it is her father. As far as it is not work related I don't see any problem.

Response by SgtMaj Kenneth Dillon made Jul 31 at 2016 4:56 PM

2016-07-31T16:56:13-04:00

I was never in the Army, but this is about the silliest thing I ever heard of. Duuuhhhh...it's his daughter! I would recommend dad call the CO. And, if they are foolish enough to go ahead with an Article 15, she should request a special court martial. There would probably be some people relieved for gross stupidity.

Response by MAJ Luca Luca made Jul 31 at 2016 5:05 PM

2016-07-31T17:05:49-04:00

If this is legitimate, then the PSG is not following any regulations. If there is not a ban on a family member picking up a AIT soldier on a pass, there are no restrictions as to who is making that pick up. In a situation of family relationships, rank is irrelevant, unless one party is using the rank for special treatment (signing out the troop when not on pass privileges, using authority to get pass privileges). If the father is not in the chain of command or involved in herd there should not be a problem . The PSG seems to want to flex authority to one up the officer, not to punish the recruit. On the flip side, she was given a direct order, she disregarded it rather than get it resolved through correct channels. Situations like this requires the young troop to act with diplomacy, things can get pretty, volatile and sideways quickly. Such as a over eager PSG putting paper on an officer's kid.

Response by SgtMaj Kenneth Dillon made Jul 31 at 2016 5:09 PM

2016-07-31T17:09:03-04:00

I was never in the Army, but this is about the silliest thing I have ever heard of. I suggest dad contact the command. And, if the command is foolish enough to go ahead with an article 15, she should request a SPCM. That would be quite interesting.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2016 5:17 PM

2016-07-31T17:17:52-04:00

IG Complaint. 'Nuff said!

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2016 5:26 PM

2016-07-31T17:26:30-04:00

I know that using logic in the military is highly discouraged, but this is just plain stupid. They're family, they're not in the same unit, it's not fucking fraternization. How hard is that to understand?

Response by MAJ John Moran made Jul 31 at 2016 5:39 PM

2016-07-31T17:39:56-04:00

Sorry, not sorry, that PSG is a f@cking idiot.

I could go into more detail, but really? A parent (who happens to be an O) can't pick up their child (who happens to be an E)?

And I thought I had heard all the stupid.

The only potential for non-regulation behavior here would be if the Officer parent tried to influence the enlisted child's CoC. But even then, it's not frat, it's indue command influence.

Response by CPT Carlos Negron made Jul 31 at 2016 5:41 PM

2016-07-31T17:41:30-04:00

Thats why I am so glad I am retired; because of this stupidity. We are fighting a war and PSG is a fucking moron for following this kind of ignorance. Teach our young soldiers to lead and fight the war and the PSG should know already that he is her father not a fuck buddy for Christ sake. Bunch of fucking ignorants

Response by SGT Brandon Koehler made Jul 31 at 2016 5:53 PM

2016-07-31T17:53:50-04:00

AR 600-20
The standard for what constitutes an inappropriate leader-subordinate relationship hasn't changed in the new AR 600-20 4-14b which states, relationships, (both opposite-gender and same-gender) are prohibited if they: -- Compromise, or appear to compromise, the integrity of supervisory authority or the chain of command; -- Cause actual or perceived partiality or unfairness; -- Involve, or appear to involve, the improper use of rank or position for personal gain; -- Are, or are perceived to be, exploitative or coercive in nature; -- Create an actual or clearly predictable adverse impact on discipline, authority, morale or the ability of the command to accomplish its mission.

Fraternization

Officer-enlisted relations are prohibited regardless of rank or unit affilitistion. Exemptions to this are as stated
- if the officer and enlisted in question are related by means of family, immediate or not
-if the officer and enlisted in question were married prior to both entering service.

Response by LCpl Richard Forbus made Jul 31 at 2016 6:17 PM

2016-07-31T18:17:57-04:00

This is ridiculous.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2016 7:01 PM

2016-07-31T19:01:50-04:00

That's the stupidest thing I read all week.

Response by CWO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2016 7:04 PM

2016-07-31T19:04:07-04:00

Absolutely not. He was her father and an Officer long before she was a Soldier. I suspect dear old dad would have a conversation with the Plt Commander and the JAG if there were still any confusion.

Response by SPC Joseph Morin made Jul 31 at 2016 7:40 PM

2016-07-31T19:40:08-04:00

The thing that's irritating about this, is that this fool they gave an NCO rank to is training future soldiers. That moron needs to be kissing the ground as he apologizes to the soldier and her father. That USMJ is not right, and I have seen several good soldiers get screwed over for the stupidest garbage. It would be one thing if they were in the same unit, and if they were dateing. But come on, this is a father and daughter in two seperate units spending some familly time together. That NCO needs to be schooled.

Response by SGT David Young made Jul 31 at 2016 7:49 PM

2016-07-31T19:49:14-04:00

Families are the most important aspect of our lives. Their relationship as Father and Daughter transcends the intent of the policy. It is so strange and disturbing that our country has strayed from traditional values!

Response by SPC Ric Hornsby made Jul 31 at 2016 7:50 PM

2016-07-31T19:50:26-04:00

The Father/Major just needs to have a little talk with the Company commander. I am certain that this BS will go away instantly after.

Response by 1SG Edward Cullen made Jul 31 at 2016 7:51 PM

2016-07-31T19:51:49-04:00

I suggest the Officer read TRADOC regulations regarding students.

Response by SFC Francisco Rosario made Jul 31 at 2016 7:53 PM

2016-07-31T19:53:29-04:00

The only way i can see this as fraternization is if he has placed some un-due influence on how she is treated. If she is treated the same way as the rest of her platoon, then this PSG needs to check himself. I was an Equal Opportunity Advisor (EOA) during the last four years of my military career. This would not have been considered fraternization. This looks like a very proud father.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2016 7:54 PM

2016-07-31T19:54:50-04:00

This is absolutely ridiculous. A pre-existing relationship is allowed even assuming the two were only friends prior to enlistment or commissioning. To state that a father and daughter are fraternizing is absolutely asinine. If she can't get the appropriate support from her chain of command (beyond her PSG) she should take this to the IG.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2016 8:01 PM

2016-07-31T20:01:15-04:00

That soldier's legal office failed her. It should of been stop there. Unless, there is more to the story, the Soldier should of challenged it. Heck, I would advise for an open door policy. I'm surprise the Soldier's father didn't do it himself.

Response by SFC Francisco Larraza made Jul 31 at 2016 8:07 PM

2016-07-31T20:07:01-04:00

This is so stupid, after all he's her father! I could maybe understand if the father had other officers in the car with him at the time. Cases like this need to be looked at from a common sense point of view,. Immediate family is not fraternizing no matter what! Read the regulation and don't take it out of context!

Response by SGT Victoria Belbusti made Jul 31 at 2016 8:13 PM

2016-07-31T20:13:08-04:00

Currently reclassing and in AIT. Apparently they do consider it. However, I think special permission can be requested. We were recently sent an updated reg. I'll have to fish for it and get back on here.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2016 8:17 PM

2016-07-31T20:17:06-04:00

All I see is everyone referring to the fraternization part of this...so we already know by regulation that this is NOT fraternization...so this is where you would need to look. TRADOC has this AR350-6. Then you would need to go to chapter 4-5 and more importantly look at table 4-1. It offers some explanation to the questions here. Now not knowing the entire situation leads most of us to assumptions...that is where we need to slow down and look at all of the regulations that this may fall under. Yes the PSG is an idiot for the whole fraternization thing...anyone in the Army should know where to find that.

Response by MSG Franklin Mclelland made Jul 31 at 2016 8:24 PM

2016-07-31T20:24:58-04:00

Did this PSG before counseling the SM actual look the definition of franerniztion and also look up what the Army considers franerniztion. Because, family members are exempt, this so called PSG should know this, because franerniztion can occur between senior/junior NCOs and enlisted personal. I believe they are just trying to punish this SM because her father is an officer. If I was her, I would tell the PSG, "I will take the article 15" and have my dad show up with the post JAG. Then again I have always been infantry and never held back my opinion, maybe that's why I got two article15s in my career. LOL!!

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2016 8:30 PM

2016-07-31T20:30:55-04:00

Pre-existing family relationship - she should ask for trail by court martial. Unbelievable that 1. No common sense applied and 2. Leadership failed to consult the regulation.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2016 8:35 PM

2016-07-31T20:35:57-04:00

When I read it, I assumed it was like a romantic relationship (before I read the entire story) and thought well this is a legitimate case. However, under the given circumstances the father and daughter relationship doesn't count as fraternization. They are family. They are entitled to spend time together, this Platoon Sergeant is probably jumping the gun by making assumptions when he hasn't carefully evaluated the situation.

Response by SPC Ray Orvin made Jul 31 at 2016 8:39 PM

2016-07-31T20:39:02-04:00

Wel my ass would have been in a lot of trouble when I was in. Dad CWO 5 step mother CSM back in the day

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2016 8:41 PM

2016-07-31T20:41:36-04:00

It's his daughter Jesus get a life

Response by SSG Bobby Gilbert made Jul 31 at 2016 8:57 PM

2016-07-31T20:57:48-04:00

Not in her unit. Not in her chain of command. Not prejudicial to the good order of the Army. Officer is parental unit, PSG is now outranked by the PFC. Seriously. NCO's like this embarrass me!

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2016 9:20 PM

2016-07-31T21:20:02-04:00

Seriously? I feel like some people forget to be.... people.. for the sake of trying to push a reg or get after someone if they feel it's remotely possible to be able to do so. Also, USAF here, what does PSG stand for? I'm going to guess the position of platoon sergeant?

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2016 9:24 PM

2016-07-31T21:24:13-04:00

AR clearly outlines pre existing relationships, such as family

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2016 9:32 PM

2016-07-31T21:32:44-04:00

Completely absurd.

Response by SSgt Stephen Mills made Jul 31 at 2016 9:40 PM

2016-07-31T21:40:34-04:00

What about when an enlisted married an Ofc. A few different reasons that can happen. I've seen it several times. I got out of the military in 2010 because I was seeing more of this stupid stuff beginning to happen. If what happened the way this is reported, it's a sad state of affairs for our military. I did time in 3 branches for 17 years and if this is true, it would be the dumbest things I've heard of.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2016 9:57 PM

2016-07-31T21:57:26-04:00

At Basic Graduation my brother, at Captain picked me up with my parents for family day, we even went to the officers club to eat. No one said a word, it's family not a friend I made while in service. My ties to my family runner deeper than my ties to drill Sargents. They are wrong and he needs to pull rank and make that phone call.

Response by 1SG Tom Conner made Jul 31 at 2016 10:13 PM

2016-07-31T22:13:33-04:00

The question is how fit this PSG is for her position.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2016 10:38 PM

2016-07-31T22:38:11-04:00

TRADOC regulation 350-6 chapter 4-5 and table 4-1 is where you need to be looking for your answers...

Response by SN Peter Stella made Jul 31 at 2016 10:50 PM

2016-07-31T22:50:25-04:00

I bet the PSG told the AIT Soldier that "is a direct order" when they said it (get it)

Response by SFC Walter Wilson made Jul 31 at 2016 11:56 PM

2016-07-31T23:56:07-04:00

If I recall correctly the fraternization rules has clauses just for this. The specific example that comes to mind is married couples where one becomes an officer. I know when I was an instructor and family was coming through training the cadre member and Soldier had to write MFR's if they planned on engaging in family activities. This sounds like someone a little to overzealous and will probably bite them in the end.

Response by PO1 Steve Anderson made Aug 1 at 2016 12:04 AM

2016-08-01T00:04:45-04:00

I was written up in San Diego for fraternization in a similar incident. My father (Army CW4) gave me his old car. Before I got a new sticker, I was was written up driving on the base, I was PO2 at the time. It was dropped later, but a real pain in the ass.

Response by SP5 Hank Vandenburgh PhD made Aug 1 at 2016 12:05 AM

2016-08-01T00:05:40-04:00

I see that E-7s are just as dumb as when I was in. In the 60s fortunately, we didn't have rules against relationships and fraternization.

Response by SGT Eliyahu Rooff made Aug 1 at 2016 12:28 AM

2016-08-01T00:28:07-04:00

Some people just don't think things through or play the movie to the end of the reel. When I was in basic back in the dark ages, the father of one of the kids in my platoon called the Orderly Room to ask when he could stop by and visit his son that weekend. Our First Shirt took the call, told the father to go F himself and hung up. Big mistake. The father was a Marine Corps 0-6 who was not pleased with that response. Our new First Sergeant was much more respectful when families called. He didn't allow family visits either, but did it without antagonizing anyone.

Response by SPC Lillian VanCoonis made Aug 1 at 2016 1:21 AM

2016-08-01T01:21:11-04:00

Taking the post at face value, it is not fraternization. The relationship existed before the PVT joined the Army and is not under her father's CMD. The PSG better have something else that we're not seeing if they do not want to be reprimanded.

Response by MAJ Karl Knutson made Aug 1 at 2016 1:21 AM

2016-08-01T01:21:50-04:00

AR 600-20, paragraph 4-14, defines relationships between Soldiers of different ranks and seeks to clarify proper personal and professional relationships within the Army.

The standard for what constitutes an inappropriate leader-subordinate relationship hasn't changed in the new AR 600-20 4-14b which states, relationships, (both opposite-gender and same-gender) are prohibited if they: -- Compromise, or appear to compromise, the integrity of supervisory authority or the chain of command; -- Cause actual or perceived partiality or unfairness; -- Involve, or appear to involve, the improper use of rank or position for personal gain; -- Are, or are perceived to be, exploitative or coercive in nature; -- Create an actual or clearly predictable adverse impact on discipline, authority, morale or the ability of the command to accomplish its mission.

Response by SGT Javier Silva made Aug 1 at 2016 1:31 AM

2016-08-01T01:31:01-04:00

DoD regulations does not consider familial relationships to fall under fraternization, because they happened prior to the member's service. It is considered a conflict of interest had she been assigned to the same unit. I believe that the Army Command Policy also references these types of relationships. As long as the father doesn't try to use his rank, the Army does not see this as a problem. How else could the son of one of service Secretaries serve? If i were her, I would most definitely see TDS. I would also request a Courts Martial, and present the evidence. Would he say the same thing to the son or daughter of a CSM, CSMA, MCPO, MCPON, etc?

Response by SGM Joel Cook made Aug 1 at 2016 2:59 AM

2016-08-01T02:59:30-04:00

Any time an AIT student's parent is a high ranking soldier there is the possibility of favoritism. However it must be real, demonstrated, and witnessed. Not based on chances of it happening or someone's imagination. I saw an AIT soldier released from duty early so her father, who was a LTC, could depart for a weekend vacation to beat rush hour. One month after graduating from AIT that soldier married her former Drill SGT. That was in 1978. Now days they would put that SSG under the prison.

Response by SSgt Jim Gilmore made Aug 1 at 2016 3:37 AM

2016-08-01T03:37:04-04:00

The PSG is dumber than dogshit.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2016 3:43 AM

2016-08-01T03:43:12-04:00

I would not accept that A-15 and take it up to higher powers. I don't think the legal would advise the CO to push on. I'm sure the offered a Company Grade because it as easy and Soldiers usually get scared into accepting it.

Response by Bob Goodworth made Aug 1 at 2016 4:04 AM

2016-08-01T04:04:00-04:00

How can a PARENT picking up thèir CHILD ever be construed or even considered FRATERNISATION. Someone has ROCKS in their collective BRAINS .So much for FAMILY FRIENDLY Armed Forces.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2016 5:11 AM

2016-08-01T05:11:45-04:00

I see all this "I wish a mofo would" yet so many...."well I don't want to pull rank" so what is it....rank or you become superman all of a sudden? The PSG is wrong leave it at that.

Response by TSgt Michael Newman made Aug 1 at 2016 7:07 AM

2016-08-01T07:07:34-04:00

So most people here are missing some of the facts. She is not allowed to get into the vehicle based upon what phase she is in of her AIT. This soldier is in IET and by TRADOC Regulation 350-6, para 4-5, b., (6), she can not get in that POV even if it is family. Only on graduation day and enroute between BCT and AIT. Anything above that requires a waiver by the Brigade commander. Where this becomes a fraternization issue is it causes perceived unfairness (since POV's are off limits to everyone ) per AR 600-20, 4-14, b. In addition AR 600-20,para 4–15 states "Other prohibited relationships
a. Trainee and Soldier relationships. Any relationship between permanent party personnel and initial entry training trainees not required by the training mission is prohibited. This prohibition applies to permanent party personnel without regard to the installation of assignment of the permanent party member or the trainee." All of these items together supports her PSG's statement. The fact that she was told by her PSG and she still did it anyways warrants the UCMJ action. It may sound mean but the PSG is correct and should be supported.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2016 7:41 AM

2016-08-01T07:41:51-04:00

You all might wanna read up!!! THIS IS FRATERNIZATION!!!!!! There should be absolutely NO PERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS AT ALL!!!!! Between officers and enlisted. The regulations are quite clear about this. If it looks wrong it is wrong. It would be in that Soldier's best interest to comply. It sounds like that PSG is doing his job to me.

Response by CPT Nick Bryan made Aug 1 at 2016 7:42 AM

2016-08-01T07:42:09-04:00

Sounds like he's just trying to be a hard ass about it. otherwise he's a complete idiot. Sorry for the name calling but that's the dumbest thing I've heard in a while.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2016 7:44 AM

2016-08-01T07:44:19-04:00

Pick that Soldier up in Civilian attire, and no one will know anyway. Nothing can really be done about it, but why put yourself through that crap. Just comply and make it look right

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2016 7:45 AM

2016-08-01T07:45:43-04:00

PS didn't see it the Soldier was his kid at first, but still. Make it look right

Response by PO1 Sean Degnan made Aug 1 at 2016 7:48 AM

2016-08-01T07:48:47-04:00

As TSgt Joshua Copeland answered earlier, this is a pre-existing family relationship. She is not gaining any undue benefit simply by being the daughter of a Major.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2016 8:04 AM

2016-08-01T08:04:34-04:00

Sounds like a PSG would be catching a right hook to the mouth. Douchebag!

Response by Capt William Shipley made Aug 1 at 2016 8:29 AM

2016-08-01T08:29:38-04:00

I once worked in a dental clinic where the Orthodontist (a bird colonel) worked three operatories down from his wife (TSGT)... If that was not a BIG deal then why is this?

Response by Capt Tom Brown made Aug 1 at 2016 8:34 AM

2016-08-01T08:34:24-04:00

SSG Robert Burns It's bee a while since you posted this; I am checking back to see if and how it was ever resolved. I notice 436 comments to date. As an old Marine I am not up on the latest regs so thanks for your insights on how this worked out.

Response by TSgt John Hotelling made Aug 1 at 2016 8:59 AM

2016-08-01T08:59:04-04:00

One well placed phone call would have made this never have happened

Response by SSG Brian MacBain made Aug 1 at 2016 9:02 AM

2016-08-01T09:02:32-04:00

I been out for a while, but that PSG needs to reread the AR again. I been retired for 10yrs, so I cannot remember the exact AR it is. However, this is not fraternization. 1. Not in the same unit.. 2. Not in the same command. Same goes with this. If an Officer in one unit (not in the same BDE/BN/CO) and a enlist soldier in a totally different unit can date and that is not Fraternization. However, if in the same unit (BDE/BN/CO), then it is frat. I had this issue in my PLT in Korea.
I hope this soldier seeks legal help and maybe his father can assist with this issue.

Response by CWO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2016 10:05 AM

2016-08-01T10:05:18-04:00

UCMJ clearly states "familial ties."

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2016 10:13 AM

2016-08-01T10:13:05-04:00

It doesn't sound like we have the whole story

Response by COL Lee Flemming made Aug 1 at 2016 10:26 AM

2016-08-01T10:26:48-04:00

Families that are sacrificing for the good of our nation should not be put in the situation that the PSG is placing this recruit in. Service and commitment are hard enough, leadership should not place subordinates in positions where they have to do it alone. Clearly not fraternization.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2016 10:41 AM

2016-08-01T10:41:23-04:00

How can it be fraternization if it is family? The only way that there could be a problem is if the father is using his rank to try and influence her command for special treatment and that would be a horse of a different shade. But if not, than there is no fraternization in the traditional officer/ enlisted area due to the family relationship. The PSG needs to get his head examined or a plumber to unseat it from his fourth point of contact.

Response by CDR Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2016 10:45 AM

2016-08-01T10:45:51-04:00

Family trumps frat. Full stop.

Response by SPC Terry Hill made Aug 1 at 2016 10:53 AM

2016-08-01T10:53:17-04:00

Sorry, guess I'very been out too long. What is a PSG?

Response by SPC Terry Hill made Aug 1 at 2016 10:58 AM

2016-08-01T10:58:12-04:00

What happens if the Officer signs out the trainee while not in uniform? It removes even the appearance of impropriety, does it not?

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2016 11:06 AM

2016-08-01T11:06:52-04:00

How is this fraternization he is her father

Response by MSgt Bruce Hutchinson made Aug 1 at 2016 11:11 AM

2016-08-01T11:11:09-04:00

I'd like to see any UCMJ action stand up to an IG action.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2016 11:17 AM

2016-08-01T11:17:04-04:00

Permanent party members, and Officers attending training at the base, are typically prohibited from the training/living areas and other specific locations wherein AIT Soldiers frequent.
I would say that the Officer, who is the father of said Soldier, should obtain approval from the Soldier's chain of command. Additionally, the PSG would likely have the support of the chain and the post commander should the situation escalate; however, I think NJP without properly mitigating adverse action is not the correct COA.

Response by SFC Christopher Wheadon made Aug 1 at 2016 11:19 AM

2016-08-01T11:19:59-04:00

Not fraternization, as far as him being an officer. As a permanent party member and a training status member, there possibly could be grounds for limiting that relationship during training, depending upon the local policy.

Whether it seems right or not, the policy defines everything in this case.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2016 11:26 AM

2016-08-01T11:26:44-04:00

I can't believe this is an actual thread...

Response by 1stSgt Brian Re made Aug 1 at 2016 11:48 AM

2016-08-01T11:48:09-04:00

Her father, as the senior and commissioned officer would be one who would have to answer to this charge.

Response by Teresa Lampert made Aug 1 at 2016 11:51 AM

2016-08-01T11:51:49-04:00

Having five family members that are officers (to include my own father) and spending my time in service as an enlisted soldier, this is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.. Good grief..

Response by 2ndLt Fulton Recepcion made Aug 1 at 2016 11:58 AM

2016-08-01T11:58:01-04:00

Really? Most (real) fraternization situations are not so conspicuous. Did this PSG even ask this Soldier what the deal was or did they just assume? Yeah, no common sense!

Response by SGT Christopher Bake made Aug 1 at 2016 12:07 PM

2016-08-01T12:07:22-04:00

What was the outcome?

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2016 12:21 PM

2016-08-01T12:21:33-04:00

Everyone needs to stop for a minute and look at TRADOC regulation 350-6 chapter 4-5 table 4-1. It is there in black and white. The fraternization thing is ridiculous. Anybody can find the answer to this one in the matter of minutes. We know that this is NOT fraternization! What we do know is that this Soldier is in AIT...the TRADOC regulation has clear guidance on riding in POVs. So instead of making assumptions based on just a little bit of the story maybe you all should look at the regulations. Pretty sure that your not going to go into anyone's office and demand anything. If you are then maybe you have served long enough in the Army and it is your time to exit stage left.

Response by SSgt August Helmke made Aug 1 at 2016 12:42 PM

2016-08-01T12:42:54-04:00

Sounds to me like some overbearing stickler is pushing the letter of the law and ignoring the spirit of the law.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2016 1:03 PM

2016-08-01T13:03:34-04:00

If the major is disrupting training then there should be a phone call from the CO politely requesting that he not pick his daughter up, and maybe a discussion of why the CO feels that it is a disruption. Threatening the Soldier with UCMJ action because she let her father pick her up, that's just the wrong answer. It will likely end up with an IG complaint and a heck of a crapstorm for the NCO.

Response by SGT Alejandro Sarandrea made Aug 1 at 2016 1:18 PM

2016-08-01T13:18:03-04:00

Please see DA Pamphlet 600-35 section 2-8 paragraph B for more clarification.

Response by PO3 David Bryan made Aug 1 at 2016 1:25 PM

2016-08-01T13:25:01-04:00

Sounds like the PSG has a small problem with the soldier. Maybe her father should have a chat with the PSG.

Response by SPC Kelly Gillespie made Aug 1 at 2016 1:35 PM

2016-08-01T13:35:59-04:00

I beat three Article 15's like that. Just because someone has a higher rank than you does not mean they know more than you. Know your regs and stand up to the idiots.

Response by Cpl Daniel Rogers made Aug 1 at 2016 1:46 PM

2016-08-01T13:46:52-04:00

no. This is why I think stupid should hurt

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2016 1:50 PM

2016-08-01T13:50:01-04:00

My father is an officer in the army, and we were both stationed together in Korea. I got to visit him, drink a beer with him and go on trips outside country on leave. If that's fraternization then I'd like to see that developmental counseling on paper so I can frame it.

Response by SSG David Peters made Aug 1 at 2016 2:04 PM

2016-08-01T14:04:21-04:00

Anybody send link this to SMA Dailey yet, I bet he would love to talk to that PSG!

Response by SN Nolan Allen made Aug 1 at 2016 2:22 PM

2016-08-01T14:22:03-04:00

Now, if that wasn't the biggest waste of time I've seen in a while...

Response by CPT Dion Francis made Aug 1 at 2016 2:24 PM

2016-08-01T14:24:54-04:00

That Platoon Sergeant is an goof ball that doesn't know regulations or common sense. I guess they are just looking to get their chain of command embarrassed. They will do that stuff till they jerk the wrong General Officer's chain then it will go to the top and work its way down through the chain of command ..ending at the Platoon Sergeant. My retired E-8 grandfather picked me up as a private from basic (with 4 or 5 of my buddies ) for Thanksgiving. The Drill Sergeants and the chain of command were very respectful. And we were returned on time. I , as a retired 18 series and former Army Captain, delivered my son his car at Air Force Tech school, and was treated so very well and respectful that it actually brought tears to my old eyes. I was lodged on base in the transient field grade officers quarters & my son was allowed to spend the night with me. Families that serve the country generation after generation should not be harassed as this Platoon Sergeant did. Their continued service should be recognized and honored. God Bless the USA.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2016 2:31 PM

2016-08-01T14:31:40-04:00

This could be the dumbest thing I've ever read on here…

Response by 1SG John Aaron made Aug 1 at 2016 3:03 PM

2016-08-01T15:03:34-04:00

This doesn't meet the standard for an inappropriate relationship.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2016 3:09 PM

2016-08-01T15:09:57-04:00

Send her to legal. They'll clear that shit right up. I don't often suggest involving ranking parents, but it seems dad might need to have this platoon sergeant read the reg to him, then explain why he's sorry for being so wrong.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2016 3:19 PM

2016-08-01T15:19:15-04:00

This is what the military is coming to? A SFC doesn't have the common sense to see fraternization vs family relationship?

Where is the Soldiers CO? This is as simple as an open door visit. Heck- it shouldn't have to go past the 1SG.

Response by SFC Shane Funkhouser made Aug 1 at 2016 4:03 PM

2016-08-01T16:03:33-04:00

Is the PSG stupid? The fraternization policy aplies to inappropriate relationships not familial relationships . I know plenty of general officers with enlisted children I'd love to see this PSG explain to a general how they can't spend time with their family.

Response by SGT Julie Wall made Aug 1 at 2016 4:23 PM

2016-08-01T16:23:21-04:00

My uncle (an officer) picked me up (enlisted) from AIT and took me out for the day with my aunt. It is called family people. Nothing more. Happens all the time.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2016 4:23 PM

2016-08-01T16:23:40-04:00

By the new fraternization regulation that changed in 2015 he has to get a memo signed by her chain of command stating she is allowed to get in the car with him due to being family and a prior relationship of father/daughter before her enlistment! I know this as a current AIT Instructor and prior Army Recruiter I had to do this for any friends I recruited to hang out with them!

Response by SSG Tim Carpenter made Aug 1 at 2016 5:02 PM

2016-08-01T17:02:51-04:00

What a moron. I think it's time for that PSG to hear an over due "pop" from their head being removed from his/her six. It just might be a mind blowing experience for them.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2016 6:25 PM

2016-08-01T18:25:57-04:00

That violates tradoc regulation 350-6. Her father is not allowed to pick her up in his pov. Also, she is required to have a battle buddy anyway.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2016 6:30 PM

2016-08-01T18:30:28-04:00

That just seems really ridiculous. I mean come on they are family not anything else. Common sense is just disappearing at this point. I would challenge the PSG to tell that to the Major. See how far they can get with that.

Response by Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen made Aug 1 at 2016 6:48 PM

2016-08-01T18:48:23-04:00

You have got to be kidding me! PSG needs to get head out of butt before he/she suffocates.

Response by SFC Sean Murphy made Aug 1 at 2016 8:38 PM

2016-08-01T20:38:36-04:00

That's total horseshit. Complete lunacy.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2016 9:34 PM

2016-08-01T21:34:40-04:00

It is not at all. I had a soldier who's father was a BG. Endstate is there is more to the story. As for the art 15 that may stick as violation of art 92. However I would try and rectify this through CoC if not then IG. Point is no matter the rank of a family member it cannot be consider fraternization. If he were just a family friend it could be depending on previous relationship with said individual.

Response by SPC George Kendrick made Aug 1 at 2016 9:47 PM

2016-08-01T21:47:29-04:00

The whole premise is rediculous, it's obviously not fraternization.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2016 10:48 PM

2016-08-01T22:48:48-04:00

I'm an AIT PSG, I see this situation every other weekend. It is not fraternization.

Response by CW4 Angel C. made Aug 1 at 2016 11:42 PM

2016-08-01T23:42:37-04:00

This is the stupidest thing I've heard in years! Are you sure this is a legit story or barracks jokes?

Response by SSG Kyle Stromgren made Aug 2 at 2016 1:00 AM

2016-08-02T01:00:42-04:00

My father was a LTC when he retired and I was enlisted he even swore me in a few times.

Response by PV2 Jeffrey Waite made Aug 2 at 2016 1:52 AM

2016-08-02T01:52:35-04:00

I would take it to the chaplin, were it me. Clearly there is something up the PSG"s ass, and a chaplin's foot would be a good substitute. Failing that I'd demand a court martial and watch the other guy blink.

Response by SSG Kevin Leir made Aug 2 at 2016 3:32 AM

2016-08-02T03:32:15-04:00

It's her FATHER! Lighten the fuck up you idiotic imbeciles! Familial is not fraternization!

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2016 4:13 AM

2016-08-02T04:13:51-04:00

This seems more like an NCO attempting to satisfy some personal vendetta or even some old score, more than corrective action. As an NCO, some common sense would work well in a situation like this. Take the trainee aside and simply ask that she minimize visual exposure during pick-up and drop-offs...or that her father be out of uniform...Seems like the PSG may feel threatened in some way? I'd be interested to know the back-story or if the PSG is just being a hard-nosed peck. Either way, this conduct is not inappropriate and is authorized IAW AR 600-20.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2016 4:21 AM

2016-08-02T04:21:59-04:00

I don't think it's a true or false situation, and before you read further I am completely against the idea of the Soldier receiving UCMJ for this.

Although I disagree with it, if it their actions have an impact on good order and discipline it's an issue as well as "Trainee and Soldier relationships" are prohibited. (I myself had a close call in Basic for receiving a letter from a family member with their rank on it.)

To me it would make sense to avoid the issues up front if the MAJ wanted to pick up their kid, not to do it in uniform for everyone to see. If he's in civilian clothes, and it's not causing an impact on unit readiness, than it should be treated as a private matter and be left that way.

UCMJ could be enforced for Article 92 - failure to obey lawful order, for violation of AR 600-20, par 4-15, any of 4-14 b. (1) - (5), or in the case an order was given. I believe the statement of "undue" familiarity couldn't apply here as it's a family member.

As for Article 134 - Fraternization it specifically states "Not all contact or association between officers and enlisted persons is an offense. Whether the contact or association in question is an offense depends on the surrounding circumstances."

I would recommend to any Commander considering on enforcing this to discuss it with their JAG office first, and safe bet for the Company Commander to discuss it with their Commander as well.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2016 6:48 AM

2016-08-02T06:48:55-04:00

Some questions, does the Soldier say a lot or use her father's rank to get better Treatment? Does father show up in uniform? Does dad call unit to check up on training? I was a PSG at IBOLC and had the opportunity to train many fine young Infantry Officers, however, during the few times a son or nephew of a General Officers came for training it became difficult for some. A phone call once a week or after a training event. Listening to "my daddy" is so and so or can do this get real old when trying to train forty-seven you for men. If the PSG is tired of undo pressure from the chain of command or outside influence, then good for the PSG. If the PSG is just being petty, then shame on them.

Response by CAPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2016 7:31 AM

2016-08-02T07:31:57-04:00

The Soldier's relationship with her father (an officer) preexists her status as an enlisted soldier. As long as the father is not using his status as an officer to unduly influence her liberty (time off), duties, assignments etc. then it isn't fraternization. If the Platoon Sergeant persists she should request to speak with the 1st Sgt.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2016 8:04 AM

2016-08-02T08:04:56-04:00

Unfortunately, AR600-20 (2014), Paragraph 4-14 is sufficiently unclear regarding familial relationships that the PAGs interpretation, although it doesn't pass the common sense test, could be considered correct. DA Pam 600-35 (2000) clarifies these situations and is still active guidance, but it is unclear weather or not this guidance applies to the newer AR. Fraternization policy has gotten tougher specifically in the realm of dating (which this does not apply to), to the extent that if there is a change of status of one member of the relationship from enlisted to officer, then they must terminate the relationship. This was not the case up into the 90's. The soldier should seek guidance from the unit or post JAG since she is the one being threatened. Any intervention by the father could hurt her case as it could be perceived as undue influence and therefore contrary to good order and discipline, which is absolutely prohibited.

Response by SFC Stephen Dill made Aug 2 at 2016 8:31 AM

2016-08-02T08:31:18-04:00

People need to educate themselves on what is considered fraternization and what not! Please read the regulation which covers Relationships Between Soldiers of Different Ranks.........

SFC, U.S.A
Retired JAG

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2016 8:35 AM

2016-08-02T08:35:22-04:00

Sounds like she got on her psg shit list

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2016 8:54 AM

2016-08-02T08:54:08-04:00

To be clear, My Father is my Commander (O-6), I am one of his section NCOICs. When it comes to inter-familial relationships, it is largely vastly overrated. The Commander is harder and more critical of me than any of his other Soldiers because of the scrutiny of nepotism.

In my experience over 14 years, a person is more likely to fraternize or be favored by a close friend than a family member, due to the heightened scrutiny the family members face.

Response by Cpl Kent Mitchell made Aug 2 at 2016 9:27 AM

2016-08-02T09:27:56-04:00

WTF is a PSG?

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2016 9:47 AM

2016-08-02T09:47:17-04:00

There are regulations outlining fraternization. I cannot recall the AR at this time, but I do recall that "relationships" between officers and enlisted are not explicitly denied.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2016 9:50 AM

2016-08-02T09:50:05-04:00

When I was in OSUT, I was driven back from Family Day by a Sergeant First Class that was a family friend. Now, the SFC was a male so this is not "fraternization" in the terms of what is happening in this situation, but, there is a regulation that states enlisted and non-comms cannot "hang out", that's fraternization. So, with what happened to me, I should of been punished, but I wasn't, hell I didn't even stand at 'parade rest' while talking to him...and I was in Basic, and we were both in uniform. As long as she shows proper customs and courtesy(sp) when they are both in uniform and around other soldiers, then her PSG is in the wrong, she should bring this up to her chain of command.

Response by Sgt Todd Meedel made Aug 2 at 2016 9:54 AM

2016-08-02T09:54:23-04:00

Her Father needs to jump on the shit of the PSG or his supervisor

Response by PO1 Felix Rivera made Aug 2 at 2016 9:54 AM

2016-08-02T09:54:47-04:00

now, aren't we being just a little over zealous?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2016 10:30 AM

2016-08-02T10:30:23-04:00

Per TRADOC 350-1 that is still a no-go unless cleared by that trainees chain of command.

Response by SPC Glynnwood Ragas made Aug 2 at 2016 10:59 AM

2016-08-02T10:59:19-04:00

Her PSG has a duty and responsibility but at the same time this is that soldiers father as far as I'm concerned the PSG should be talked too by the 1SG considering this is the soldiers father. There is no fraternization going on in this particular case. Why ruin this soldiers experience cause you as a PSG have a problem with a military brat in your platoon. GET OVER YOURSELF! Army Strong

Response by PO1 Gregory Joines made Aug 2 at 2016 11:11 AM

2016-08-02T11:11:56-04:00

As a veteran I trust I'm not out of line commenting. You folks live in your own world. I'm glad you're there but I must say, this kind of bullshit is exactly why I couldn't remain active beyond my 6 year commitment. A lack of common sense existed in the late 70's/early 80's and apparently it's little different today.

Response by SGT Karl Owen made Aug 2 at 2016 12:18 PM

2016-08-02T12:18:15-04:00

If the PSG actually read the regulations they'd know it doesn't qualify as fraternization.

Response by PFC Patrick States made Aug 2 at 2016 12:27 PM

2016-08-02T12:27:25-04:00

It should take her father about 30 seconds to clear this up. Just talk to her CO and explain that family relationships are exceptions to fraternization which he and her PSG should know. If not, then a call to JAG should end it.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2016 12:59 PM

2016-08-02T12:59:52-04:00

PSG needs to be taken to the wood line.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2016 1:13 PM

2016-08-02T13:13:07-04:00

It shouldn't be classified as fraternization,however, in TRADOC iet soldiers are not allowed in vehicles unless it's a cab or signed out on a family day pass. Family day passes are only awarded upon arrival and graduation.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2016 1:29 PM

2016-08-02T13:29:35-04:00

She should be able to request an exception to policy memorandum to her Commander for her situation.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2016 1:32 PM

2016-08-02T13:32:31-04:00

That's like saying when my dad was still in the Air Force as a MSG, and I was on leave, I cannot ride in the car with him places. That's ridiculous. No way is that fraternization.

Response by SGT Marc Jones made Aug 2 at 2016 1:46 PM

2016-08-02T13:46:16-04:00

Weekend pass in basic/AIT? Unheard of!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2016 2:21 PM

2016-08-02T14:21:06-04:00

Is her father interfering with her training? If so the PSG is correct in my opinion, if not then her father should be able to pick her up if they are given the time to spend with their family.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2016 3:37 PM

2016-08-02T15:37:44-04:00

This scenario is part of a larger problem with the NCO Corps. That is failure to ever actually read something for yourself. I can't count how many times in my career that I've ran across someone who believed something to be true because at some point in their career they were told, by someone they trusted, that something was "in the reg...", yet they never bothered to do the research themselves.

Anytime someone has ever said to me "Well the reg says.... " I usually interrupt them with "What reg?", often to find a blank stare at the other end.

A secondary issue is learning to read a regulation as it was meant to be written. NCOs are the enforcers of policies and standards but sadly, to many don't know what they are actually enforcing.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2016 3:43 PM

2016-08-02T15:43:08-04:00

Whoever the PSG is needs to get over himself. Shit ain't that serious.

Response by MSgt Roger Lalik made Aug 2 at 2016 3:56 PM

2016-08-02T15:56:33-04:00

So they actually wasted paper to write all that down on. Hmmmm ... sounds like they're wasting valuable ink and paper resources on this. :)

I'm amazed that someone actually considered this a problem. I know I retired eons ago ('87) coming from a time when a "smart weapon" was a trigger finger.

Now listen up... If you got a few stripes on your shoulders or some gold or silver on your collar. You're getting paid to lead which requires thinking. The person(s) that are pushing this are cheating the government out of money in the thinking part. You should hit the finance office on payday and give back some of that money.

It's just plum silly.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2016 3:57 PM

2016-08-02T15:57:08-04:00

i'm the only enlisted in my family, i have 2 cousins that are full birds and 3 that are majs, im an e8, when together i conduct myself by regs, but we are still family so the psg needs to stand down, this is not fraternization

Response by CW3 Eric Hammond made Aug 2 at 2016 4:05 PM

2016-08-02T16:05:50-04:00

See what happens when the military has no wars to fight, back to the stupid!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2016 4:28 PM

2016-08-02T16:28:07-04:00

As long as she known him before he was an Officer, it's cool IAW the regs.
Immediate family, including spouses are exempt from this rule.
Of the spouse decides to become an officer while married to an enlisted or vice versa, is explained very clearly.
Parents don't have to be mentioned in detail

Response by 1SG Charles Shank made Aug 2 at 2016 4:49 PM

2016-08-02T16:49:51-04:00

If I were the father of this soldier, I would have a one on one with the company commander and let the commander deal with PSG doedoe bird. This is the dumbest thing I have heard in a long time and mak s me wonder if we are only hearing half of the real story. No senior leader would risk their child's career and no NCO should be this ill informed.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2016 5:06 PM

2016-08-02T17:06:06-04:00

Not to be the dissenting party here but while I was in basic training my battle buddy's mother was a LTC and she was not allowed to see her not because it was fraternization but because it is basic training. It is meant to be a period of time of building an individual into a Soldier! Sometimes contact with family can bring hardship and raise feelings that could prevent the soldier from completing basic training and their commitment. I think the reasoning behind the recommendation for UCMJ is not for fraternization but for not following a lawful order which was not to get in the vehicle with the family member. This is something that I have seen in the past as a restriction for certain courses and which may lead to non judicial punishment.

Response by SGT Myles Taylor made Aug 2 at 2016 5:55 PM

2016-08-02T17:55:39-04:00

SSG Robert Burns whatever came of this do you know?

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2016 6:15 PM

2016-08-02T18:15:53-04:00

I don't see it as fraternization but someone in the unit could perceive it has preferential treatment if she is being treated differently for example if no one is allowed a pass and she gets one

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2016 6:21 PM

2016-08-02T18:21:34-04:00

There has been a relationship between both of them before she joined. Obviously, it is her father. She has valid proof. And it shouldn't even be a question. It is not fraternization. There is no way she would get ucmj action for this

Response by Capt Jeff S. made Aug 2 at 2016 6:29 PM

2016-08-02T18:29:00-04:00

The Army does not supersede familial bonds. There might be a conflict of interest were they in the same unit, which can be taken care of by the Army -- but they're not even in the same unit!!!

I would seriously question the PSG's judgment, as it would appear the PSG has contracted a severe case of cranial rectumitis. It's highly contagious and I surely wouldn't want it affecting the other troops at AIT. Just to be sure, I'd quarantine and counsel the PSG to see whether the chip on their shoulder (which is preventing extraction of their head) is removable. And if their case was terminal and their head can't be removed from that place where the sun doesn't shine, I'd reassign them and document the counseling session to get them the help they need. ; )

Response by Cpl Michael Burns made Aug 2 at 2016 6:41 PM

2016-08-02T18:41:59-04:00

I had a buddy in bootcamp. His dad was an admiral in the navy. When he deployed, his father also deployed. He was commanding a aircraft carrier. I believe that admiral is the man in charge. Not too good with navy rule. When my buddy was in okinawa, his father set in motion for him to be sent out to his carrierHe stayed there for a few weeks while on deployment. If he can do that i dont see how she can get in trouble. It just sounds like b.s. politics. Heres the story with the deets.
http://thechive.com/2013/10/28/user-submit-marine-reunites-with-dad-on-uss-george-washington-12-photos-and-story/

User submit: Marine reunites with Dad on USS George Washington (12 Photos and story)

I recently had the opportunity to be reunited with my father. He is in the Navy stationed in Japan and I am a Marine stationed in Hawaii. We are both currently deployed in the Western Pacific and were able to arrange a flight to get me and another Marine out to my dad's ship. It…

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2016 6:56 PM

2016-08-02T18:56:48-04:00

If this is true then this is not fraternization

Response by Sgt David Hutchinson made Aug 2 at 2016 7:05 PM

2016-08-02T19:05:37-04:00

It's family. My Uncle was a Captain in the Airwing when I was going through SOI. The fact of the matter is the PSG (whatever the hell that is) is on a power trip and gets off on the idea of messing with the Major's kid

Response by SSG Jeremy Sharp made Aug 2 at 2016 7:09 PM

2016-08-02T19:09:57-04:00

I would not think that any commander at any level would think that this is an appropriate use of the UCMJ. Most SJA Attorneys would run this past the covening authority and be told to tell the PSG to stand down. The Regulations are subject to interpretation by the commander and I truly doubt a CSM or Bn. Cmdr. are going to back this PSG's play if the MAJ is not in the trainees chain of command.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2016 7:10 PM

2016-08-02T19:10:42-04:00

That is not true. Her father daughter relationship is obviously preexisting the military relationship and thus trumps. The PSG has a very limited understanding of frat policy.

Response by SPC James Nadeau made Aug 2 at 2016 7:10 PM

2016-08-02T19:10:58-04:00

First off they are family, second prior relationship before the military supercedes the fraternization rule.

Response by PO2 Brian Harringgton made Aug 2 at 2016 7:24 PM

2016-08-02T19:24:18-04:00

this is no means of has the elements of fratentization I was dating a chief as an e4 she as an e7 in seperate commands the navy tried to intervene but lost

Response by CSM Michael Sweeney made Aug 2 at 2016 7:35 PM

2016-08-02T19:35:47-04:00

I know I'm a tad bit late on this. Does anyone know how it turned out? I think I may read more into this or there really is "the rest of the story" here. As a SSG PCS'ng from Korea to Ft Dix, I met with my wife who was in AIT at Ft Jackson at the time. She left the unit at the same time as the rest of her class mates. They walked to the bus and taxi stands to go down town for a couple of days and I walked to the nearby guest house with my wife and our 3 year old son. We had been married for 4 years before she joined. That was no where near being fraternization, not because of our established marriage or that I was not in her chain of command. It could have been fraternization, if because of my rank, that caused my wife to have a privilege that her peers could not have, which pretty much is the main definition of fraternization. Was the threat of ART 15 due to getting into a POV when riding in a POV is against regs for trainees? If I read it right, she was warned not to and did it anyway. That has nothing to do with fraternization really, because if it was, it would be the Major who would be charged. Curious situation. My overall experiences many years ago was that Fraternization was never fully understood.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2016 7:50 PM

2016-08-02T19:50:28-04:00

Repeat after me: "No UCMJ thank you, go ahead and start the Court Martial..."

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2016 7:53 PM

2016-08-02T19:53:48-04:00

Why would a PSG be wasting their time on a situation like this unless the soldiers father represented a physical threat? So a married NCO isn't allowed to live with their spouse junior enlisted then by the same logic. Dumb!

Response by SGT Jerrold Pesz made Aug 2 at 2016 8:01 PM

2016-08-02T20:01:31-04:00

Her PSG is an asshole and an idiot.

Response by LTC Joseph Gross made Aug 2 at 2016 8:19 PM

2016-08-02T20:19:10-04:00

This PSG needs to be first educated and then slapped in the back of the head to let him realize what a stupid idea he has running around in his brain.

Response by SGT Edward Reioux made Aug 2 at 2016 8:49 PM

2016-08-02T20:49:14-04:00

Fight it. Contact JAG.

Response by SPC Doss Burleson made Aug 2 at 2016 9:03 PM

2016-08-02T21:03:25-04:00

I would be in trouble for telling him to Fuck off! And then take that shit to trial

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2016 9:50 PM

2016-08-02T21:50:03-04:00

I am not an expert on the UCMJ although I did spend some time as a legal clerk, but this does not fit the description of fraternization the way I read it. Now if she was counseled in writing by the PSG this constitutes a written order. She should have complied and asked her father to speak to the company commander about it. Flat out ignoring the counseling just put a wrong on a wrong and complicated the situation. There are ways to handle things like this without being confrontational or usurping someone's authority.

Response by 1st Lt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2016 10:26 PM

2016-08-02T22:26:08-04:00

Absolutely not. It sounds like a certain PSG has an ego problem. Hopefully it's temporary.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2016 10:36 PM

2016-08-02T22:36:47-04:00

Did it undermine the chain of command? Was that soldier explicitly denied prior or after the fact. If SM did get in said vehicle SM can be charged with fraternization or failing to obey a direct order. The Staff Duty NCO found out after the fact and pushed the UCMJ it should be tossed. Either way it's a hard sell.

Not all contact or association between officers and enlisted persons is an offense. Whether the contact or association in question is an offense depends on the surrounding circumstances. Factors to be considered include whether the conduct has compromised the chain of command, resulted in the appearance of partiality, or otherwise undermined good order, discipline, authority, or morale.

From Article 134 UCMJ

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2016 10:40 PM

2016-08-02T22:40:34-04:00

As a former AIT PSG and NCO all I can do is SMH and say WTF??

Response by Sgt Ken Chandler made Aug 2 at 2016 11:01 PM

2016-08-02T23:01:58-04:00

I think something else must be going on here. Surely the PSG has better common sense than this.If one were truly fraternizing I would think both would be required to be written up.

Response by SGT Theresa Edmonston made Aug 3 at 2016 12:25 AM

2016-08-03T00:25:24-04:00

It is her father! Are you kidding me! My Uncle would come pick me up on weekends I was on pass since he was the only family near by. He was SNCO USAF, taught on the same instillation. No issues! Yes the first time they asked the normal, Who is it? Blah Blah Blah... but for safety not on a basis of fraternization! Both uniforms said "Spohrer", can't deny we are not related we look alike. Good Lord! Family is family in crazy times like that it is great to have someone to help you decompress. If underage kids can go to a motel, get drunk, sleep with each other and a whole list of things Privates do. There is NOTHING wrong with having her father pick her up. OK sorry rant over.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 3 at 2016 12:59 AM

2016-08-03T00:59:09-04:00

That is the craziest definition of fraternization that I've ever heard. She needs to take this up with the company commander. There's no way that this will fly.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 3 at 2016 1:13 AM

2016-08-03T01:13:14-04:00

This PSG is an idiot the reg makes specific exemptions for familial relationships. Even if it did not you would think one would apply some common sense or at least get an opine from JAG.

Response by PFC Daniel Stoll made Aug 3 at 2016 2:11 AM

2016-08-03T02:11:11-04:00

Probably just somebody that doesn't know the rules and is an idiot!

Response by Sgt Justin DavisCrowe made Aug 3 at 2016 6:14 AM

2016-08-03T06:14:08-04:00

If her father is a Major, and she is Enlisted it cannot be Frat I don't care if she was a Major and her Father was a SgtMaj. They are family. If it is family it is NOT FRAT. The relationship existed before her military career started so they cannot do anything. This is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Sounds to me like someone is jealous of others. When I was in the Marines, I had a buddy who's Father was a General in the Air Force. Nothing was said about when his father came to visit our unit other than we need to be inspection ready for the whole dog and pony show. His dad took care of our unit because he got things for us that other units did not have. It was really awesome to have a fellow Marine who's dad was a 3 star.

Response by SSgt Jim Gilmore made Aug 3 at 2016 7:05 AM

2016-08-03T07:05:19-04:00

I am afraid if I were that soldier's father, that PSG would be getting his ass dressed down and then I'd be having a friendly chat with his CO. I know, you can't fix stupid but duct tape does muffle the sound some.

Response by CPL James Mellar made Aug 3 at 2016 8:10 AM

2016-08-03T08:10:58-04:00

It is not fraternization unless the family member is a part of the enlisted person's chain of command.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 3 at 2016 8:33 AM

2016-08-03T08:33:19-04:00

Congratulations this PSG is the biggest idiot I have ever seen

Response by TSgt Julie Miller made Aug 3 at 2016 8:44 AM

2016-08-03T08:44:31-04:00

I believe that in this case, the Major and the soldier have followed proper protocol and this sounds to me very much like a case of personality conflicts. In reviewing this situation it appears to be an old case, so most likely has been rectified by now. I think a strong review of military regulations concerning fraternization is called for, and the court of public opinion should be tabled.

If you think about this, married couples, one who is an officer and one who is enlisted would not be allowed to be married anymore, as they are fraternizing. The rules of fraternization have been put in place to oversee all aspects of daily military life, to ensure there is no favoritism applied. To ensure all members of a unit, regardless of mission, are treated fairly.

If he signed her out on a Sunday, could they have been going to church on base, maybe a nice lunch to catch up. If he is not in her chain of command, then is it a problem? It is a training base, so are there already rules in place regarding this type of interaction?

Over my 20 yrs in service I saw many instances of fraternization that went unchecked and it cost the higher ranking person their career. I also saw, within my own unit, a SSG and a Chief, fall in love get married and she transferred out from her previous duty section into a new one, where he was not in any part of her chain-of-command.

The saddest part here, is if the PSG had an axe to grind and was allowed, unchecked, to grind it, then the PSG became an ineffective leader. If the PSG was only trying to do what they felt was right for the training unit, as was indeed backed up by the CO, then that's fine too.

We, in the military, have set in place rules of conduct to ensure Esprit De Corps at all times. And sometimes that means leaving personal opinions on the table.

Response by CMSgt Eric Turner made Aug 3 at 2016 9:40 AM

2016-08-03T09:40:39-04:00

This is just stupidity, it's her father. Is she supposed to sever her relationship with him?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 3 at 2016 11:03 AM

2016-08-03T11:03:17-04:00

I believe the PSG is off base. However there might be more to the story. Since she's an AIT Soldier maybe she didnt have a pass coming (for whatever reason) and Officer Daddy is pulling rank.

Response by SPC Michael Morelli made Aug 3 at 2016 11:44 AM

2016-08-03T11:44:17-04:00

He should have know better?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 3 at 2016 1:03 PM

2016-08-03T13:03:36-04:00

I’m glad I’m old and out of it. Sign out during basic or AIT? Never heard of it except for family medical emergencies and then it was granted as leave. How fraternization came into the equation, and it was allowed to happen previously is a secondary question to me, and quite silly.

I realize there’s probably all sorts of AR’s these days that covers signing someone out of training; I don’t want to know about them. Family members came to visit me on the spur of the moment when I was in PLDC at Benning. They were politely told I was not available. I didn’t know they were there until several months later. I felt bad, but after I thought about it, my training came first, slack day or no slack day.

Response by 1stSgt Brant Young made Aug 3 at 2016 2:06 PM

2016-08-03T14:06:14-04:00

This is not fraternization. Said Platoon Sergeant needs remedial training from his/her 1stSgt on what constitutes fraternization so he/she does not look like a fool in front of his/her Privates.

Response by SSgt Gary Guinn made Aug 3 at 2016 2:13 PM

2016-08-03T14:13:14-04:00

Give me a break, it's her Dad for Gods sake. As if she hasn't spent her entire life knowing where the line is. Ridiculous. Glad I'm not serving today.

Response by SGT Francis Daen made Aug 3 at 2016 3:19 PM

2016-08-03T15:19:36-04:00

This PSG needs to be squared away his so dumbed he needs to retired

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 3 at 2016 3:57 PM

2016-08-03T15:57:58-04:00

No PSG would be that stupid to stop her from going with her father. If that PSG is that stupid then that PSG needs to be counseled for being stupid. Its a preexisting family relationship. That is above and beyond the fathers rank. The Army can't sit there and promote family and programs for family and then have some stupid PSG go against family

Response by CMSgt Scott Haskins made Aug 3 at 2016 4:42 PM

2016-08-03T16:42:11-04:00

I have 3 daughters in uniform: 1 - E6, 1 - E4, & 1 - O3. I am a retired E9. I guess if we follow this direction family Christmas is a thing of the past. I would not consider this fraternization.

Response by SGT MiChele Mitchell made Aug 3 at 2016 4:46 PM

2016-08-03T16:46:20-04:00

When I was in AIT, my father who was a Captain at the time visited me on post. He picked up me and three of my friends and took us to dinner at the Officer's Club; we had no problems.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 3 at 2016 5:42 PM

2016-08-03T17:42:38-04:00

Does she have her father listed on the DD form 2983. Personally I think the PSG is out of line.

Army directive 2016-17 protecting against prohibited relations during recruiting and entry-level training. Dated 22 JUN 2016

Response by CAPT Bruce Bruni made Aug 3 at 2016 6:43 PM

2016-08-03T18:43:32-04:00

So does that mean this soldier cannot have Christmas or Thanksgiving dinner at her father's house? This is ridiculous and is becoming more typical of today's military where common sense is severely lacking. As an O4, I once was TAD at the same base where my E3 daughter was attending training. We had lunch together a number of times and no one made an issue of it.

Response by SSG Clarence Moore made Aug 3 at 2016 6:59 PM

2016-08-03T18:59:18-04:00

So she is not allowed to have a relationship with her father because she is enlisted and he is an officer for the rest of their lives? ?? Not realistic or fair!!

Response by SFC Lawrence Johannik made Aug 3 at 2016 7:10 PM

2016-08-03T19:10:51-04:00

This would fall under 350-6 and phasing privileges but also any policy letter the trng bde may have.

In the trng bde I was with it was against the policy letter for any IET Soldier to ride in or operate a POV. There were exceptions IE Living off post (phase 5+) because of lengthy MOS trng.

Additionally while my daughter was in training I had to let my COC know. During duty hours when I saw her it was military respect and discipline.

When she was granted pass in phase 5+ I was allowed to get her with her chain of command permission

Response by Maj Pete Siegel made Aug 3 at 2016 7:28 PM

2016-08-03T19:28:03-04:00

Their heads are placed where the sun don't shine and they suffer from a case of what we called "optical rectalitis."

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 3 at 2016 8:11 PM

2016-08-03T20:11:37-04:00

Prime example of a young leader not knowing TRADOC Reg 350-6 and common sense. That young Soldier's parents probably drove them to AIT from BCT graduation!

Response by SMSgt William Hassiepen made Aug 3 at 2016 8:41 PM

2016-08-03T20:41:02-04:00

How can be riding in the same car with your FATHER be fraternization. Fraternization does NOT apply if they are family members. Who ever brought charges was a complete idiot

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 3 at 2016 8:59 PM

2016-08-03T20:59:18-04:00

That PSG needs re-training. Or he's just an idiot. -SFC Rojas

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 3 at 2016 9:19 PM

2016-08-03T21:19:52-04:00

Permanent party must formally request through the Soldiers chain of command to pick the Soldier up during preapproved times. Outside of that, it's not authorized.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 3 at 2016 9:30 PM

2016-08-03T21:30:27-04:00

If it were some random Major...sure.
But its her damn father, how can anybody be this incredibly moronic?
What if they...have dinner? Oh no, a family meal? How will the army survive?

Response by Lt Col Paul Maxwell made Aug 3 at 2016 9:36 PM

2016-08-03T21:36:29-04:00

Sounds like there may be some power issues in the background for the PSG. But I would hope that if/when the paperwork hit the command section desk, it was remediated promptly by E9/OIC. Stepping between a parent and adult enlisted child seems almost irrational

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 3 at 2016 9:43 PM

2016-08-03T21:43:29-04:00

It's her father....He probably is attracted to her that's why he's doing that or her dad knows something about him. Smh

Response by LTC Robert Mikaloff made Aug 3 at 2016 9:50 PM

2016-08-03T21:50:06-04:00

This is one of the dumber things I've read in a while. The PSG needs to be corrected. Family trumps all in these matters. The Chain of Command needs to get it's mind right. If this soldier is given non-judicial punishment my recommendation to him is to demand court martial, call their bluff. Then if it goes to court martial see how the Chain of Command reacts to violating a family bond. We shoot ourselves in the foot and this young troop will never stay...and neither will Dad.

Response by LTC James Troia made Aug 3 at 2016 10:35 PM

2016-08-03T22:35:11-04:00

False. It's her father and the PSG will not get to see pass E-6.

Response by LCpl Steve Smith made Aug 3 at 2016 11:41 PM

2016-08-03T23:41:52-04:00

Did her PSG have a Brain Fart or is He/ She just that Stupid? How did this Soldier even make Rank if he or she doesn't have the forethought to verify there is a Violation in Regulations prior to giving her such an order? Now I see how old this topic is so I know everything is more then likely said and done but if they brought her up on charges Her JAG Lawyer should of counseled her that she could file charges against the PSG for Harassment for the 14 days of extra duty and charges.
So what was the Out Come of this issue anyway?

Response by MSgt Chris Chambre made Aug 4 at 2016 4:18 AM

2016-08-04T04:18:31-04:00

Once again, you do not receive article 15 punishment, you accept it in lieu of a court martial, I'd like to see how the court martial would go myself. I think the DS would not fare quite so well.

Response by SPC Patrick Chandler made Aug 4 at 2016 4:23 AM

2016-08-04T04:23:03-04:00

I believe part of the regulation on fraternization states any relationship between permanent party personnel and IET Soldiers not required by the training mission is prohibited. I think it's DA Pamphlet 600-35 and AR 600-20 but don't quote me on that.

Response by MSG Roy Stiles made Aug 4 at 2016 9:45 AM

2016-08-04T09:45:59-04:00

This is why we need qualified and skilled Drill Sergeants in AIT not an off the block PSG. A professional NCO would look at the regs, look at the situation, seek guidance for clarity, then do the right thing.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2016 2:19 PM

2016-08-04T14:19:27-04:00

There was a relationship prior to her enlistment. No different than married couples where one commissions after the beginning of the relationship

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2016 3:39 PM

2016-08-04T15:39:36-04:00

Greetings!
Although the scenario is not fraternization outright according to the UCMJ, TRADOC does have policies in place for resident Soldiers and Soldiers in training.
If a resident Soldier of a post has a family member that will be attending basic or AIT, the Soldier has to initially abide by the TRADOC policy. It is required to get a memorandum signed with some key information (no, I wont pull rank. no, I won't interfere with training) from the Soldier's supervisor. The trainee's unit can be provided a copy, but the memorandum is to protect the Soldier from scenarios exactly like this.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2016 3:57 PM

2016-08-04T15:57:50-04:00

Dumb crap like this is why our society needs to re-think it's stance on education. I really wish I could be in a room alone with the recommender and just stare at him to figure out why in the world his brain don't work.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2016 5:12 PM

2016-08-04T17:12:53-04:00

Pull your heads out of your ass, he is her father, and it's only fraternization if there is relations intent. Or if the chain of command is involved, but not when it is family.

Response by PO1 Michael Pitt made Aug 4 at 2016 6:05 PM

2016-08-04T18:05:48-04:00

This is dumb on the part of the PSG.

Response by SGT Duane Huggins made Aug 4 at 2016 6:54 PM

2016-08-04T18:54:58-04:00

On the grounds of straight fraternization then no. To me one question is what are all of the facts. Is the Father/Officer using his rank to be able to do this. Has she tried to use her fathers rank to intimidate her C.O.C.. If either of these are the cases are true then something needs to be done. Some of the soldiers that I knew who knew the regs better than even the JAG office where those who had parents that where in. They also knew how to manipulate the regs in ways that where completely out of the box.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2016 7:42 PM

2016-08-04T19:42:34-04:00

My question is why is the father, as an officer, not going through the proper channels. There is paper work that needs to be filled out for every little thing on the planet in AIT land. I have to assume she just took it upon herself to take a ride with Pops on a Sunday pass which is in every instance against the rules. You wanna see your kid, don't care if you're a 10 Star General of the planet, fill out the form, the IET soldier gets counseled, the two of you roll out to Panera. Too Easy

Response by SSG Isiash Mcculler made Aug 4 at 2016 8:18 PM

2016-08-04T20:18:44-04:00

That not true, not she have cut off ties with her family, that taking Army regulation out of content.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2016 8:43 PM

2016-08-04T20:43:40-04:00

It's not fraternization. However TRADOC regulations require that a permanent party Soldier get an exception to policy to visit with Soldiers in AIT even if they are parent/child related etc

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2016 9:04 PM

2016-08-04T21:04:09-04:00

Pre existing relationships are good to go and im pretty sure you cant find a more sterling example of that. Im ashamed at the era we are living in as an NCO corps

Response by LCpl Wayne Gombar made Aug 4 at 2016 9:25 PM

2016-08-04T21:25:00-04:00

Negative, my father was a Major when he met me, and picked me up on numerous occasions, sounds like an overzealous arsehole to me....

Response by SFC Laurie Schultz made Aug 4 at 2016 11:00 PM

2016-08-04T23:00:47-04:00

The PSG is going to be in a world of hurt. Not only is the parent and officer, but never mess with Daddy's Little Girl

Response by LTJG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2016 11:25 PM

2016-08-04T23:25:43-04:00

My understanding was that if you had a relationship prior to the officer/enlisted rank, frasternization is not applicable. Since family is always before the rank thus this shouldn't be fraternization... Now if they were in same unit/command then there needs to be a fine line drawn for all professional reasons.

Response by SFC Paul McCrary made Aug 5 at 2016 12:14 AM

2016-08-05T00:14:56-04:00

The PSG could simply be following Policy. NCO's do not make Policy, they enforce it. I did my time on the trail and can remember the BDE CMDR's son coming through as well as a 1SG's son. Exception to Policy can be written out and the Soldier should maintain a copy of it on them at all times. Problem solved.

Response by MAJ Michael Sjostrom made Aug 5 at 2016 6:41 AM

2016-08-05T06:41:25-04:00

No, it is not. It is a pre-existing relationship, and is familial in nature. The PSG has lost his mind as has his chain of command, if they support him.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 5 at 2016 8:55 AM

2016-08-05T08:55:49-04:00

If he is Cadre for any of the training commands on post then there could be trouble in the wording of the fraternization policy. It basically says Cadre and trainees are not allowed to interact other than what is required for training. The problem is that the PSG is taking the letter of the law over the spirit. A way too literal reading of the policy.

Response by GySgt Carl Rumbolo made Aug 13 at 2016 5:22 PM

2016-08-13T17:22:35-04:00

Response by SSG Shavonde Chase made Oct 31 at 2016 5:42 PM

2016-10-31T17:42:39-04:00

I guess the correct answer is other with the intent to prevent fraternization.

Response by MSgt George Cater made Dec 11 at 2016 4:07 AM

2016-12-11T04:07:41-05:00

I'd like to think this it a joke, but I know it isn't. Rigid, dogmatic & totally inflexible is not a definition of leadership.

Response by SSG Richard Reilly made Aug 14 at 2017 10:55 AM

2017-08-14T10:55:15-04:00

technically true via TRADOC Regulations.

Response by CW2 Fred Baker made Aug 16 at 2017 2:42 PM

2017-08-16T14:42:25-04:00

This is the most ridiculous extension by someone in the chain of command to exert power over another. I can't speak for the enlisted individual, but if it were me, I would contact the JAG, refuse any Art. 15 and request a courts martial. This is a family father/daughter relationship, not a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship. Also, I see nothing about charging a superior officer for fraternizing with the enlisted individual. I am sure the expected ensuing embarrassment to the service would cause any charges to disappear.

Response by SSgt Boyd Welch made Aug 16 at 2017 4:50 PM

2017-08-16T16:50:35-04:00

Unless things have changed drastically,. fraternization used to be between officers downward or NCOs fraternizing with females in their chain of command. To tell an enlisted that they can't socialize with their parent because the parent also happens to be an officer is the height of idiocy....I would hope that the officer uses a broom handle for bodily inspection on the as*hat floor lickers who came up with a UCMJ charge and extra duty....if that is all that is going on.

Response by SFC Jim Ruether made Aug 16 at 2017 5:10 PM

2017-08-16T17:10:17-04:00

I can't believe that someone is pursuing this frivolous use of the UCMJ. That person should be counseled by his commander and drop these charges before he is charged himself for wasting everyone's time. I get so sick of these book thumpers and their inappropriate use of military law.

Response by SFC Jim Ruether made Aug 16 at 2017 5:42 PM

2017-08-16T17:42:28-04:00

Any follow up as to how this turned out SSG Burns?

Response by SGT Joseph Gunderson made Aug 16 at 2017 9:19 PM

2017-08-16T21:19:58-04:00

False lol very, very false lol

Response by SGT Joseph Gunderson made Aug 16 at 2017 9:20 PM

2017-08-16T21:20:53-04:00

Someone needs to go brush up on the definition of fraternization lol

Response by SGT Eric Knutson made Aug 17 at 2017 1:02 AM

2017-08-17T01:02:34-04:00

When I was in BASIC, my father came in and signed me out at FTLWMO, He checked in with BN, it was the Sunday before graduation. The Drills were a little upset, but that was explained to me that BN never called down other than to make sure I was not on restriction for some reason, and here they have an Air Force LTC standing at the door looking for me. He was traveling through for some TDY in FL and wanted to stop in and congratulate me as he would not be around for either grad ceremony.

Response by PFC Jackeline Pellot made Aug 30 at 2017 6:48 PM

2017-08-30T18:48:14-04:00

False ...

Response by SSgt Jim Gilmore made Oct 12 at 2017 9:10 AM

2017-10-12T09:10:13-04:00

Someone has their panties in a wad. No way can getting in a car with your father can be considered fraternization. Sorry, parent trumps rank in my opinion,

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 12 at 2017 9:15 AM

2017-10-12T09:15:51-04:00

This is not fraternization because they are family. The enlisted Soldier is not Dating her father. This is taking the regulation beyond what it was meant. Again I've said it before and I'll say it again we need some common sense and if an NCO cannot figure out that family members are not banded from being around each other even thought they are of different ranks then that NCO does not need to be in the military. They only want to abuse the reg to their advantage and it sounds like they just don't like the Soldier. Shame on the Drill Sergeant and the Chain of Command.

Response by SFC Greg Bruorton made Dec 28 at 2017 1:04 PM

2017-12-28T13:04:58-05:00

That's a helluva reach! During my tour in the Dominican Republic (1966) as a buck sergeant I was picked up for church attendance on Sundays by a full-bird colonel (not a relative) in his sedan. Care to prosecute me now for fraternization?

The colonel had come to my Orderly Room and asked for me by name, after learning I was the only Latter-day Saint in the Signal company.

Response by SPC David Willis made Dec 28 at 2017 1:22 PM

2017-12-28T13:22:44-05:00

How did this end up getting resolved? Anyone know?

Response by SFC Jim Ruether made Dec 28 at 2017 2:39 PM

2017-12-28T14:39:25-05:00

This happened Feb 2015 I believe does anyone have an update to the situation? It should have been settled by now I would think?

Response by SGT Randall Smith made Feb 15 at 2018 6:40 PM

2018-02-15T18:40:12-05:00

Her plt sgt is being an ass

Response by 1SG Frank Boynton made Sep 2 at 2018 2:27 PM

2018-09-02T14:27:16-04:00

Sounds like the SSG has a power trip or is sexually interested in his trainee. Someone needs to rake this SSG around the corner and educate him for his own sake.

Response by SFC Kenneth Kreps made Sep 10 at 2018 4:41 PM

2018-09-10T16:41:19-04:00

The PSG and the Commander are going to be very embarrassed, should these bogus charges go anywhere. Father/son, father/ daughter relationships do NOT remotely fall under any fraternization rule. I dont know who this guy is, but someone should have a leadership chat with him.

Response by CW4 Rodney Burnett made Oct 13 at 2018 1:45 PM

2018-10-13T13:45:11-04:00

SMH..... This guy will probably be a CSM some day. God help us.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jun 28 at 2019 6:56 PM

2019-06-28T18:56:51-04:00

Some people are real pendejos.

Response by CPL Joseph Elinger made Feb 14 at 2020 10:27 AM

2020-02-14T10:27:38-05:00

As long as The Major / "Major Dad" was totally "out of the loop" in requesting, approving, or issuing the pass, I see little to imply "fraternization.". That said, it would be best if Dad is in civies & a POV at the time. Perception can effect scutlebut.

Response by CDR Michael Barrett made Sep 1 at 2020 8:26 PM

2020-09-01T20:26:59-04:00

False

Response by CMSgt James Nolan made Sep 1 at 2020 11:25 PM

2020-09-01T23:25:11-04:00

Just WOW.
Now if dad tries to help her, etc. different story. Really? You can’t see your dad? Stop.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2021 8:15 AM

2021-02-15T08:15:33-05:00

No,it’s not a fraternization; If the soldier is not in the same unit with her father,secondly if the soldiers command or AIT already know on paper that the soldier is a family member to the major then No,it’s not a fraternization either.

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Feb 15 at 2021 12:13 PM

2021-02-15T12:13:13-05:00

She needs an open door with the 1Sgt. and Commander. Or have her father talk to the BN CO. Or if they actually do Article 15, I would assume that TDS and JAG would nix that on quick.

Response by Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis made Dec 31 at 2021 8:00 PM

2021-12-31T20:00:26-05:00

This is not fraternization, this is family. I would approach the Base IG. I would also contact the PSG's CO and ask if such a prohibition is consistent the best for order and moral of the Unit.

Response by MAJ Hugh Blanchard made Jan 1 at 2022 3:07 PM

2022-01-01T15:07:15-05:00

This is ridiculous. A father cannot meet with his daughter because he's an officer and she's an enlisted soldier? Insane.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 22 at 2022 6:34 PM

2022-09-22T18:34:17-04:00

He is hating.

Response by 1SG Dean Mcbride (MPER) (CPHR) made Aug 23 at 2024 5:01 PM

2024-08-23T17:01:55-04:00

This is a very old post but, it is pure BS! As a First Sergeant I was married to a LTC... It was not Fraternization for us to be together! That was pre 1999 (I retired in 1982). Before 1999, each branch of the military had its own set of rules regarding fraternization. That year, these rules were consolidated into one uniform policy, which specifies that certain relationships are always improper and subject to fraternization rules. Such relationships include relationships between officers and enlisted service members that are personal or involve gambling or ongoing business. Other prohibited relationships are those that have an adverse effect on the chain of command, even if it’s just the appearance of impropriety. According to the "New" rules, we may have been charged with Fraternization! However, getting a ride with your father cannot be deemed as having a personal relationship. The relationship was there from birth and cannot be considered "personal" in accordance with military policy.