[Deleted]?

2022-04-18T02:29:21-04:00

Response by Maj John Bell made Apr 18 at 2022 4:51 AM

2022-04-18T04:51:29-04:00

We're not your friends and you don't want us to be. And I don't think that's what you're asking for. There is nothing wrong with being cordial. But there is a line. Unfortunately, it is a fuzzy line. You need to know that if I send you into harm's way, personal feelings are no part of that decision. Leadership has to balance between trust and openness on one side and the appearance of favoritism on the other. Even if there is nothing improper in the relationship, the mere appearance of over familiarity with someone in the command can screw a unit up. In the early stages, it is the junior who will bear the brunt of the repercussions. The formality protects you, not me.

I don't care if you like me. I do want you to trust me. If a significant minority of the troops don't trust an officer, he's probably done and should be. But it isn't science. There's an art to it. Some of us aren't artists. Sometimes were going to screw it up. Hopefully we learn, apologize, adjust and regain trust we lose when we do screw up. And we are absolutely going to screw up sooner or later.

I believe the Marine Corps is typically more formal than the Army. Maybe I'm wrong. But it colors everything I say from here on out. As a Marine officer I'm a little curious as a SPC why you would be going to officers on confidential matters within your personal or professional spheres. As a Lt I had very little contact with majors and above. When they did show up, they observed. They glad handed the Marines and only spoke to the company grade officers if something was particularly good or particularly bad, Generals just wanted to ask if there was anything needed to do to support the Marines and/or training better.

Between a junior Marine and an officer, there should be some NCO's and SNCO's. That doesn't mean the officers aren't willing, but those NCO's and SNCO's probably have more common ground and in the case of LT's there is a better chance that the NCO"s have already dealt with similar issues in the past. Obviously if the NCO or SNCO is THE PROBLEM, then the officer is the "go to."

I'm not sure to which 24/7 customs and courtesies you're referring. It may be that the officers don't actually expect what you think they do. I don't expect you to lock your body if we run into each other at the gas station, or even expect you to go out of your way to greet me. You go about your business. I go about mine. But if our paths cross, I'll offer you a professional greeting ("SPC Soderquist if I knew you, "Soldier" or your rank depending on what I know) and would expect one from you ("sir", or "major" is sufficient, "dude" or "man" is not). I don't give a rip who greets who first.

As far as customs and courtesies, outside of boot camp, the only time I expected Marines to remain at attention when speaking with me was in formation, while standing duty as watch in garrison, or if called to attention for some minor disciplinary infraction. But Marines officers generally do not get involved in discipline unless there is an immediate threat to life limb or property. Nor do we set the standards of professional decorum.

The customs and courtesies standards are entrusted to the SNCO's, and the NCO's do most of the enforcement. And I had that impression of the Army when I was aboard Army installations. When a Marine officer feels there is a customs and courtesy or disciplinary problem, unless it is absolutely outrageous, we refer the matter to an appropriate level NCO or SNCO. When we do get involved, it is because the SNCO's are at the end with the Marine and need to let him know that he's on his way out if he doesn't straighten up.

I had a lot of fishermen in my rifle platoon. Pretty much anytime anyone went fishing on liberty, they would exchange what was a hot spot and what the fish were biting on. After bumping into some of my Marines while fishing with my kids, I was included in those fishing reports. But I would never go fishing with my Marines and I'm pretty sure they wouldn't want me to. When we ran into each other, we exchanged greetings and kept a distance. Otherwise, we'd be cramping each other's style.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 18 at 2022 7:59 AM

2022-04-18T07:59:01-04:00

I find what happens most, is the relaxed relationship that some Jr. Enlisted have with the specific NCO's and Officers in their units give the false perception that they can treat all NOC's and Officers the same. I am from the old school thought of commit 100% to customs and courtesies until you are told to relax, all day, every day, every time. This is also what I expect of the soldiers that report to me. As a Squad leader I still go to parade rest for my Platoon SGT until he/she tells me to relax. The purpose of the customs is to show respect for the RANK, not the person, and to instill discipline in the troops.

Response by SSgt Mathew Cummings made Apr 18 at 2022 8:45 AM

2022-04-18T08:45:52-04:00

In my professional opinion, blurring those lines of separation will cause misconduct and undue injuries. That line is meant to be a professional boundary. If you relax it, both sides are put into comprised situations. You also need to understand under the military tangent, the business is war. I am sure that for those that have had to decide who goes where with who know what I speak of. There has to be an emotional disconnect or it comes down to a personal loss, not a position/billet/rank loss. Personally, it's a generation separation. The higher the rank, the less they want to know about what's trendy now, and the lower the rank, the less they care about how things were.

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made Apr 18 at 2022 9:14 AM

2022-04-18T09:14:14-04:00

There is a fine and distinct line between being friendly and being friends. Having a good rapport with your troops is one thing but when you blur the lines it has a tendency of getting sketchy. Once you get into the world of SNCO and Officers having working relationships as counterparts you may see things become friendly with the occasional BBQ but junior enlisted and leaders need to keep it professional. The few occasions where I have see things get too friendly it generally ends badly.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 18 at 2022 9:41 AM

2022-04-18T09:41:59-04:00

I think it varies by unit and optempo. There's a reason C/C exist, but there's also the human aspect of leadership. Balancing them properly is key, but it can be difficult to maintain that balance. Ultimately, it's up to the senior to set the tone and enforce the standard imo.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Apr 18 at 2022 10:37 AM

2022-04-18T10:37:44-04:00

It’s situation dependent. Some military work groups such as Special Forces Teams or aircrews tend to be less rank conscious. In these groups formal military customs and courtesies are relaxed or may completely disappear. This often enhances the team cohesion, trust, and efficiency. In some cases military courtesy is important. Early in my career I flew with Chief Master Sargent Curtis. He was a veteran of Korea and Vietnam. His approach to military courtesy was simple, “you can call me Chief and I’ll call you Lieutenant, Sir.”

In general the traditional customs and courtesy help keep good order and discipline. Respect costs nothing to give

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 18 at 2022 12:06 PM

2022-04-18T12:06:07-04:00

I feel the same regarding Jr Enlisted not adhering to Standards as I do with Sr Leaders not enforcing the standard. I can be friendly but not your friend. I fully expect Jr's to follow proper custom and courtesy as I fully expect myself to follow the same C&C's.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Apr 18 at 2022 2:54 PM

2022-04-18T14:54:00-04:00

It doesn't have to be locked in concrete- a couple of my friends were O's, But there is a time and place for friends- not during duty hours or in public!

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 18 at 2022 7:55 PM

2022-04-18T19:55:59-04:00

Well, now this begs the question: Why for are you now deleting the topic and question at hand?