Posted on Sep 28, 2022
Can a leader make you show early without showing themselves?
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A soldier receives a counseling after being late saying they have to show 30m earlier to all hit times for the next 30 days. Leader doesnt show up themselves instead has the soldier show photographic evidence showing they are in the right place and right time. Is this legal?
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Army Regulations
Army Regulations
Posted 2 y ago
Responses: 19
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I really hope RP offers some kind of prize to the 10,000th poster who asks if some inconvenient or unpleasant order or policy is "illegal".
Yes the order is legal, moral and ethical.
Would it be better leadership by example if that leader also hung out with with the Soldier for those 30 minutes prior to everything?
Maybe. But would that be the best use of that leader's time?
Probably not: that leader likely has more total and more important tasks than the Soldier, and the unit counting on him to get those done shouldn't have to suffer to teach one Soldier the lesson of being at the right place at the right time and in the right uniform, which is literally the first and most frequent lesson of BCT, and should be ingrained well before graduating BCT.
And the Soldier might consider himself lucky that he only has to show 30 min early, and not spend those 30 min participating in any "opportunity training" that leader might come up with to make useful time of those 30 min periods throughout the day.
Yes the order is legal, moral and ethical.
Would it be better leadership by example if that leader also hung out with with the Soldier for those 30 minutes prior to everything?
Maybe. But would that be the best use of that leader's time?
Probably not: that leader likely has more total and more important tasks than the Soldier, and the unit counting on him to get those done shouldn't have to suffer to teach one Soldier the lesson of being at the right place at the right time and in the right uniform, which is literally the first and most frequent lesson of BCT, and should be ingrained well before graduating BCT.
And the Soldier might consider himself lucky that he only has to show 30 min early, and not spend those 30 min participating in any "opportunity training" that leader might come up with to make useful time of those 30 min periods throughout the day.
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CPT (Join to see)
If the leader has enough of these soldiers he can "tier" the timing of them. That way, the one that has to report 5 minutes earlier can validate if the one that has to report 10 minutes sooner was there when 5 minute soldier got there, then the 10 minute can report that the 15 minute was there prior, then 15 can report the 20, the 20 can report the 25 and the 25 can report the 30.
That way............... the leader gets them to do all the leader's accountability work, and if the leader is lucky they will build a team among themselves to collude and simply validate each other and have each other's backs.
That way............... the leader gets them to do all the leader's accountability work, and if the leader is lucky they will build a team among themselves to collude and simply validate each other and have each other's backs.
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COL Randall C.
I supposed he has a point.
After all, if I had a soldier that was AWOL and the NJP for him was to show up 30 mins early, I would have had him report to the duty NCO and have it logged into the daily log.
But I'm old school...
After all, if I had a soldier that was AWOL and the NJP for him was to show up 30 mins early, I would have had him report to the duty NCO and have it logged into the daily log.
But I'm old school...
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SGM (Join to see)
SSG Luis Robles - Since the SM already failed to "do as I do", in this case show up on time, and we can assume the leader was showing up on time, it becomes "do as I say", or "get there 30 min early".
And if a leader doesn't have anything more important to do than stand around 30 min prior to every hit time, then that leader probably isn't doing their job at all.
And if a leader doesn't have anything more important to do than stand around 30 min prior to every hit time, then that leader probably isn't doing their job at all.
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CPT Earl George
IN Germany 1972, The officers of 2/30 IN had PT in the morning as a platoon led by the Battalion Commander. On day two, the CO was over 10 minutes late. The senior CPT dismissed the formation. The next morning we got a little lecture from the CO stating it was his formation and we would wait for him if he was late. I could not find a taker as i told everyone he would be late on purpose the following day. I was right. We waited one hour for the CO the next day. I was always early for whatever in the service. I did not want to take a chance on being late for anything.
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CPT Eireanne Russ
Senior CPT gets a B+ for initiative and an F for judgement. He should have started the PT session instead, then A+ all around. CO should have had a contingency plan, since their job may cause them to be late. AND he should have made it a point to arrive early the next day rather than jerk a bunch of senior officers around. BTW, where were the Majors, the XO and S3?
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Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis
CPT Eireanne Russ - Bang on, CPT Russ! The senior CPT, who would be the senior officer in the absence of the CO, would have three Course Of Action (COA's).
1. Do nothing; this means wait for the CO, no matter how late the CO was
2. Dismiss the formation
3. Start the PT in the absence of the CO
The CPT elected COA #2. That was the worst choice. With that said, it was a decision that needed to be made, and the CPT made it. I expect that counts for something (probably not enough, though)
COA #1 is, essentially, making no decision. Not recommended. With that said, it looks like the CO might have put up with that better than COA #2.
COA #3 is the best choice, and would have probably earned him points from the CO.
There is one more COA that's not mentioned. This is to send a runner to get direction from the CO. Might have worked. It lets the CO provide direction, allows the CO to exercise discretion, and gives the CPT a chance to show that due respect is being provided.
1. Do nothing; this means wait for the CO, no matter how late the CO was
2. Dismiss the formation
3. Start the PT in the absence of the CO
The CPT elected COA #2. That was the worst choice. With that said, it was a decision that needed to be made, and the CPT made it. I expect that counts for something (probably not enough, though)
COA #1 is, essentially, making no decision. Not recommended. With that said, it looks like the CO might have put up with that better than COA #2.
COA #3 is the best choice, and would have probably earned him points from the CO.
There is one more COA that's not mentioned. This is to send a runner to get direction from the CO. Might have worked. It lets the CO provide direction, allows the CO to exercise discretion, and gives the CPT a chance to show that due respect is being provided.
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Seriously? Can your Leader tell you to show up early to teach you a lesson in time management? Of course they can. They should.
I wonder.....is RP considered to be a place to find out how to circumvent simple, logical orders? Can my 1SGT inspect my room or can my team leader make me brush my teeth?? Ridiculous questions.
For all of you fellow old crusty leaders out there, please do not give comfort or shitty advice to these kids. They obviously leave out the details to make their situation seem more unfair. We cannot and should not undermine the leader who is there and does know the details by stating our opinion on what he or she "should have done".
It is not fair to assume "piss poor leadership"and offer up what we would have done better.
I wonder.....is RP considered to be a place to find out how to circumvent simple, logical orders? Can my 1SGT inspect my room or can my team leader make me brush my teeth?? Ridiculous questions.
For all of you fellow old crusty leaders out there, please do not give comfort or shitty advice to these kids. They obviously leave out the details to make their situation seem more unfair. We cannot and should not undermine the leader who is there and does know the details by stating our opinion on what he or she "should have done".
It is not fair to assume "piss poor leadership"and offer up what we would have done better.
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1stSgt Dan Boone
Well said GySgt Kenneth Pepper ! used a similar tactic while I was on active with a young LCpl (E3 for those who don't know), that simply refused to get with the "muster time" requirement. The difference being that it was 20 minutes and before I dismissed him from my hooch I provided him a stern warning about not screwing the pooch since he never knew when or if I would show up. I also provided him the promise that if I arrived and he wasn't on deck, the end result would be NJP with a charge of U.A. (I never intended to go through with it, but HE didn't know that.)
Of course, what I _did_ do (and I think this is the difference in leadership styles) is I actually showed up early one morning (he only had to do 15 days of early show), and on another occasion, I got there early enough to fix coffee and be drinking a cup when he showed up.
He got the message, squared away his act, and got with the program. Simple. It was really a minor inconvenience for me since it was really all about salvaging a "youngster", not about punishment. But that was just me.
Of course, what I _did_ do (and I think this is the difference in leadership styles) is I actually showed up early one morning (he only had to do 15 days of early show), and on another occasion, I got there early enough to fix coffee and be drinking a cup when he showed up.
He got the message, squared away his act, and got with the program. Simple. It was really a minor inconvenience for me since it was really all about salvaging a "youngster", not about punishment. But that was just me.
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TSgt Carl Johnson
GySgt Kenneth Pepper this is some of the most solid advice that I have seen on RP.
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