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SWAN has officially challenged the validity of using the ACFT for promotions. Years ago when the Army first indicated the ACFT would replace the APFT I predicted that SWAN would legally challenge using a gender neutral fitness event for promotion points because it would disadvantage women. At the time, I predicted the Army would keep the APFT with its scaled grading standards and use the ACFT as a GO/NO-GO event, similar to how the USMC currently does, or else remove points for fitness events completely.
SWAN has a very valid point and it's likely that other US Congress members will challenge it as well, and if that doesn't stop the Army, they could file a suit under EO because women will naturally score lower, meaning lower promotion points.
There are quite a few leaders on here who have watched the Army adapt its policies over the years, what do you think the Army will do with the ACFT?
https://taskandpurpose.com/news/army-combat-fitness-test-service-womens-action-network
SWAN has a very valid point and it's likely that other US Congress members will challenge it as well, and if that doesn't stop the Army, they could file a suit under EO because women will naturally score lower, meaning lower promotion points.
There are quite a few leaders on here who have watched the Army adapt its policies over the years, what do you think the Army will do with the ACFT?
https://taskandpurpose.com/news/army-combat-fitness-test-service-womens-action-network
ACFT
Promotions
Fitness
Equal Opportunity (EO)
Posted 4 y ago
Responses: 27
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As a female who who has worked in Male dominated industries for several years, this is the most FAIR fitness test and I couldn't be happier with it!
When I went into the oil field I was 125lbs and couldn't carry a bucket of tools to save my life. EVERY man out there intentionally made my life hell. "Sink or swim" was the game. They were going to push until I broke. I didn't break. In 5 months I from 125 to 155 and out worked every man on my crew. Could I lift as much as they could? No. But I didn't take breaks. I didn't slow down. I worked my ass off and I quickly became a favorite among the seasoned hands and supervisors and other crew leaders specifically requested me to come help motivate their guys. After all, pride is huge and no man out there wanted to be out worked, out performed and out paid by a "girl".
The ACFT puts gender aside. You can either do the job or you can't. Making fitness and readiness a priority! If you can't do the job GO HOME! Females wanted equal rights, with that comes equal responsibility. I only want the best on my crew. So either step up or step out.
When I went into the oil field I was 125lbs and couldn't carry a bucket of tools to save my life. EVERY man out there intentionally made my life hell. "Sink or swim" was the game. They were going to push until I broke. I didn't break. In 5 months I from 125 to 155 and out worked every man on my crew. Could I lift as much as they could? No. But I didn't take breaks. I didn't slow down. I worked my ass off and I quickly became a favorite among the seasoned hands and supervisors and other crew leaders specifically requested me to come help motivate their guys. After all, pride is huge and no man out there wanted to be out worked, out performed and out paid by a "girl".
The ACFT puts gender aside. You can either do the job or you can't. Making fitness and readiness a priority! If you can't do the job GO HOME! Females wanted equal rights, with that comes equal responsibility. I only want the best on my crew. So either step up or step out.
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SFC Kelly Fuerhoff
Except it's not the most fair fitness test. I agree the APFT needed to go but this should not be the sword the Army dies on.
I saw an article which I posted on another thread about a fitness test using a kettlebell that would actually measure fitness. Why can't the Army look into that? Oh because they truly just want people who "look" fit but aren't really fit. They don't even care if they have a smaller Army if it's "fitter."
The standards for this won't even be final for minimum 5 years. They haven't really had the chance for a lot of people to take it since covid hit. The ACFT doesn't put gender aside really.
It would be nice if the Army would make fitness a real priority. ACTUAL fitness. Not their pretend fitness. If they cared about fitness they would change the antiquated ABCP standards. That would be a cool start to show they care about real fitness and health. Or have dietitians in BNs or BDEs. Or trainers. But the Army doesn't care about actual fitness. They don't care how many soldiers they break - just toss them aside. Try to find new ones. Like a LTC I had once said - we're just rentals. Instead of putting real investment into us...
I saw an article which I posted on another thread about a fitness test using a kettlebell that would actually measure fitness. Why can't the Army look into that? Oh because they truly just want people who "look" fit but aren't really fit. They don't even care if they have a smaller Army if it's "fitter."
The standards for this won't even be final for minimum 5 years. They haven't really had the chance for a lot of people to take it since covid hit. The ACFT doesn't put gender aside really.
It would be nice if the Army would make fitness a real priority. ACTUAL fitness. Not their pretend fitness. If they cared about fitness they would change the antiquated ABCP standards. That would be a cool start to show they care about real fitness and health. Or have dietitians in BNs or BDEs. Or trainers. But the Army doesn't care about actual fitness. They don't care how many soldiers they break - just toss them aside. Try to find new ones. Like a LTC I had once said - we're just rentals. Instead of putting real investment into us...
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
SFC Kelly Fuerhoff - Exactly. The ABCP standards were established using 1950s "averages." Since then, Americans have become heavier, have more muscle mass, etc. While stationed at Fort Leavenworth, we had a guy in the unit who is a bodybuilder, and actually won a regional championship (for which he was awarded), but always busted weight and had to tape. In no rational world would you look at this guy and think he was "overweight." But the Army says he is.
A few years ago, the Army commissioned a study on the effectiveness of the tape test versus water displacement and the caliper test. The tape test was found to be WRONG NINETY (90) PERCENT of the time. The most accurate was the water displacement test, with the caliper test close behind. Yet the Army stays with the test that has been proven to be faulty. Some people I talked to about this said it's about money. OK the water displacement test requires lots of resources. The caliper test only requires inexpensive calipers and some easy training for those who use them. But the Army persists in using a faulty test (which most of the time is done improperly).
A few years ago, the Army commissioned a study on the effectiveness of the tape test versus water displacement and the caliper test. The tape test was found to be WRONG NINETY (90) PERCENT of the time. The most accurate was the water displacement test, with the caliper test close behind. Yet the Army stays with the test that has been proven to be faulty. Some people I talked to about this said it's about money. OK the water displacement test requires lots of resources. The caliper test only requires inexpensive calipers and some easy training for those who use them. But the Army persists in using a faulty test (which most of the time is done improperly).
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SSG Bill McCoy
SFC Kelly Fuerhoff - I agree; BUT will say that one soldier in particular, "looked the part," except he was extraordinarily short and lightweight, and had to try multiple times to enlist. Audie Murphy. Conversely, many football players wouldn't meet the height/weight standards, or BMI standards, but can run farther, lift more and hit harder than a lot of soldiers who meet said standards.
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I don't see a reason to scrap it or to move to a scaled system based on gender. Either women can perform the same duties as their male counterparts or they cannot. This has been the argument used to push females into combat arms and special operations, and I don't see how the same people who are for these changes can turn around and say a blanket PT standard that treats everyone the same is discriminatory. People need to choose which version of reality they are going to argue for and stick with it.
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SGT (Join to see)
I literally agree 150%. If you cannot meet the standard then you simply cannot accomplish the task. The standard is the standard for a REASON, so lowering it just due to gender is a handicap AND a slap in the face.
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SGT Joseph Gunderson
SFC Marc W. Oh, I know. But that's the entire issue here.
Either we need to understand that men and women are inherently different and thus suited for different roles in our military, or men and women are to be held by the exact same standards based on the idea that they are interchangeable in all situations. Each of these positions will end in a particular standard or standards for physical fitness and readiness.
What I foresee is a completely skewed standard that makes everything easier for females regardless of what is expected of them in the new roles opened up for them. I fear the very real possibility of deaths in many situations as females become more active in combat arms without being able to perform to the proper standard and what this will do for both morale and combat readiness moving forward.
Either we need to understand that men and women are inherently different and thus suited for different roles in our military, or men and women are to be held by the exact same standards based on the idea that they are interchangeable in all situations. Each of these positions will end in a particular standard or standards for physical fitness and readiness.
What I foresee is a completely skewed standard that makes everything easier for females regardless of what is expected of them in the new roles opened up for them. I fear the very real possibility of deaths in many situations as females become more active in combat arms without being able to perform to the proper standard and what this will do for both morale and combat readiness moving forward.
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Your thinking is sound, the left side of the social justice is boxed into a conundrum. It will play a lesser role as it affects promotions and therefore paychecks
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