Posted on Dec 20, 2013
Fact or Fiction? Breaking Your Leg on a Record APFT.
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If you have been informed by the Cdr that the APFT you are taking is for record and you pass your PU and you pass your SU and during the run, you hit a pothole and break an ankle and are unable to complete the test you are a Record Failure and must be flagged?
Army
APFT
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 27
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I say "no" and this is my reasoning. There is the "letter" of the regulation which does not state any exemption due to an injury while taking a record test, and there is the "intent or spirit" of the regulation. I could not in good conscience recommend to a Commander to flag a Soldier who has sustained an injury while taking a record APFT.
Real world situation. One of my SFCs, who is in outstanding shape, collapsed during the 2MR event during an APFT. We renederd first aid and got him over to the clinic. After being examined and tested by the medical folks, it was determined that he had pulled some cartilage between his ribs. Once his profile and recovery time was completed, he was re-tested and passed. No harm, no foul.
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SSG Lisa Rendina
I wish more people possessed common sense. The old adage is true: common sense isn't so common.
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SFC (Join to see)
Definitely agree with this. My 1SG downrange tried to do something like this with a guy who dislocated his knee (Knee Cap ended up on the side of his leg), and my Commander refused to do it.
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CSM Mike Maynard
CSM Howard Loomis - and their we have the crux of the problem. Some Soldiers "could" game the system and become injured if passing was in jeopardy. Giving a commander discretion in determining which "injury failures" wouldn't be flagged could be very detrimental to the commander as those who do not get a favorable ruling would run straight to the IG which could generate a 15-6 and distract the commander and command from doing their duties.
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Has anybody heard of the common sense factor?! all they need to do is write in the comment section of the 705 form of what happened. COME on NOW!!<br>
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MSG (Join to see)
I agree with you on this one, you would think/hope comment sense would come into play. However, common sense is a flower that does not grow in everyone's garden.
Throw the record one away and let the SM recovery and try again.
Too easy!
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Thanks to everyone for the feedback. Glad to see that common sense and some compassion has prevailed in this situation.<div><br></div><div>Seems that everyone and the TC agree that the Soldier would be documented as a failure - no way getting around that since they were informed it was a record, but the requirement to flag is left to the discretion of the commander in this instance.</div><div><br></div><div>Here is where the "art" of command comes into play. Since we are establishing that not ALL record APFT failures must be flagged (talking about in the case of an injury), then how do you draw the line on a legitimate injury? I think withholding your decision until you get medical advice is a good place to start in determining whether it is an injury vs effort.</div><div><br></div><div>Even with common sense and compassion, there will be those that state not everyone gets treated the same and that some are being unfairly flagged while others are not. This will be when your leadership will be required to maintain good order and discipline and a fair climate.</div>
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MAJ (Join to see)
CSM Mike Maynard - I think you hit the nail on the head with "Art of command" something that seems to be lost a lot of the time these days.
Compassion and common sense have to be key factors when making command decisions, especially in situations such as this.
Compassion and common sense have to be key factors when making command decisions, especially in situations such as this.
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SFC (Join to see)
Good comments here...I am in the same dilemma. In my case I do have a Soldier who, in my opinion, is worried about passing and happened to get injured. I applaud him for his efforts on the PU event and the SU event as he put good effort into those events and passed, but I know that he worries about both the SU event and the run and did get injured during the run and went straight to the VA coming back with an ankle brace. I feel that the best course of action in this case is to counsel said Soldier to get a profile if one is needed and note the failure but monitor how he is doing in obtaining a profile and making his efforts equal to everyone else for pass and fail. He is well admired by his peers and is a fairly decent Soldier outside of this struggle, but how can I let him slip through while others pay the price? We have to balance what the reg says with some common sense and wisdom.
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SGM Erik Marquez
CSM Mike Maynard "Seems that everyone and the TC agree that the Soldier would be documented as a failure - no way getting around that since they were informed it was a record, but the requirement to flag is left to the discretion of the commander in this instance."
CSM, another option is to FOLLOW the reg and do so with that same common sense you note is praise worthy.
AR 600-8-2 states in part "b. “Army Physical Fitness Test failure” (Flag code J). Initiate a Flag when a Soldier fails a record APFT "
That commander being a collage educated person they are, likely has learned that the word Initiate has the following common meaning
in·i·ti·ate
verb
iˈniSHēˌāt/Submit
1.
cause (a process or action) to begin.
No where in the Army Reg does it require the commander to complete the flag..
There are other regulation passages, to include in AR 600-8-2 that use verbiage that state an action must be done vice "Initiate " So I say, had the reg writer / reviewer/ approver want it to be so, it would have been written as such.
I would advise a commander who felt AR 600-8-2 required an action on their part for an APFT failure simply "Initiate " the flag, call the SM in to the office to read and sign the flag, ask them to explain the situation that lead up to the failure... when that commander found the mitigating circumstances to be reasonable, drop the flag in the shredder and tell everyone to go back to work.
Waste of time? Yes perhaps,,,, but it also protects the CDR from the known problem child who has requested (unfounded) 3 commanders inquires, 2 congressional inquires (unfounded) and logged 2 (also unfounded) EO complaints against the the CDR or 1SG.
When people want to play games, don't bang your head against the desk, just play Chess, not checkers
CSM, another option is to FOLLOW the reg and do so with that same common sense you note is praise worthy.
AR 600-8-2 states in part "b. “Army Physical Fitness Test failure” (Flag code J). Initiate a Flag when a Soldier fails a record APFT "
That commander being a collage educated person they are, likely has learned that the word Initiate has the following common meaning
in·i·ti·ate
verb
iˈniSHēˌāt/Submit
1.
cause (a process or action) to begin.
No where in the Army Reg does it require the commander to complete the flag..
There are other regulation passages, to include in AR 600-8-2 that use verbiage that state an action must be done vice "Initiate " So I say, had the reg writer / reviewer/ approver want it to be so, it would have been written as such.
I would advise a commander who felt AR 600-8-2 required an action on their part for an APFT failure simply "Initiate " the flag, call the SM in to the office to read and sign the flag, ask them to explain the situation that lead up to the failure... when that commander found the mitigating circumstances to be reasonable, drop the flag in the shredder and tell everyone to go back to work.
Waste of time? Yes perhaps,,,, but it also protects the CDR from the known problem child who has requested (unfounded) 3 commanders inquires, 2 congressional inquires (unfounded) and logged 2 (also unfounded) EO complaints against the the CDR or 1SG.
When people want to play games, don't bang your head against the desk, just play Chess, not checkers
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