22 to Zero. Are Veterans making the suicide rate worse?

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 15 Mar 2015 11:21:56 -0400

http://www.havokjournal.com/culture/22tozero-veterans-are-making-it-worse/
We all know the terrifying statistic that 22 Veterans commit suicide per day. What this author questions is whether or not the Veteran communities themselves are partly to blame. Let me know if you agree with the author, along with your reasoning.

LTC Private RallyPoint Member, CPT Private RallyPoint Member, SFC Mark Merino, MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 15 at 2015 2:00 PM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 15 Mar 2015 14:00:31 -0400

I don't see what the author of the article claims is going on at social media web sites, 1LT Private RallyPoint Member. We should invite Jordan Taylor to join RallyPoint and see veterans supporting each other. I've seen quite a few posts on RP that directly contradict what he (I'm assuming he's a he?) writes ... Things like the difference between combat vets and non-combat vets, which he makes a pretty big deal of in the article.

Okay, you have motivated me. I'm going to invite him to join RallyPoint.

Response by SPC(P) Jay Heenan made Mar 15 at 2015 2:20 PM

SPC(P) Jay Heenan — Sun, 15 Mar 2015 14:20:14 -0400

He makes a lot of general statements and only provides examples to a just a couple of examples. Maybe he should pick better Veteran sites to spend his time. He is a sensationalist, writing things that will get him hits on his website, if only to be harassed for his lack of source documenting.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Mar 15 at 2015 2:59 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Sun, 15 Mar 2015 14:59:59 -0400

The author highlights a problem with wide spread social media, as opposed to tailored social media like RP. The relative anonymity. A community like RP, we put all our details out there for everyone to see, right in our profiles.

If someone wants to, they can see when I joined, when I got out, what duty stations I was at, what deployments I did, etc. And the reverse is also true.

I don't think I have ever witnessed anyone on this site call another person a derogatory name like POG, REMF, FOBIT, et al, outside of good natured fun. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that I don't recall witnessing. The admins are swift about nipping that in the bud.

But we don't have anonymity like facebook, twitter, etc. we don't hide behind our keyboards. We might get heated on topics. Quite a few, but we don't attack each other as a matter of course.

Now, the authors concept that "social media is a support structure," I'll buy that. Followed by "social media, in general is becoming more and more virulent," still on board. This leads to "lack of support structure playing a contributing factor to vet suicide." Holy #^%#^#, that's a pretty solid hypothesis, honestly.

Let's take a look at our demographics for suicide. (quick google search, so just take it for face value).

https://www.afsp.org/understanding-suicide/facts-and-figures

Two groups based on age are going up. 25-44, and 44-64. In military terms that is Post first term (biggest exodus group) and Post Retirement (next largest). Add in:

"Patients with serious medical conditions such as cancer, HIV, lupus, and traumatic brain injury may be at increased risk for suicide. This is primarily due to psychological states such as hopelessness, helplessness, and desire for control over death. Chronic pain, insomnia and adverse effects of medications have also been cited as contributing factors. These findings point to a critical need for increased screening for mental disorders and suicidal ideation and behavior in general medical settings."

So... I think the author may be on the right track. Correlation doesn't equal causation, but man, when you have several indicators..."If it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck...."

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Mar 15 at 2015 5:59 PM

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca — Sun, 15 Mar 2015 17:59:29 -0400

I think the author took a very, VERY small snapshot and is trying to blow it up to something it is not. I am not on social media every hour of every day, but I have not seen this supposed "bullying" of other veterans that the author discusses. Yes, I'm sure it does happen periodically and I'm sure some inappropriate comments have been lobbed back and forth, but I would hate to think vets have stooped to teenage cyber-bulling, enough to push vets under stress over the edge to suicide. Most everyone here eludes to the fact that the author hasn't seen what goes on here at RP. He should look into the fact that despite reaching out to help, we have lost some dear friends. The kind of behavior the author discusses would not be tolerated here. It is truly sad when we lose ANYONE to suicide. We can only hope that those who have reached that decision point are seeking true help and not relying on anonymous social media to guide them.

Response by SP5 Michael Rathbun made Mar 15 at 2015 6:07 PM

SP5 Michael Rathbun — Sun, 15 Mar 2015 18:07:57 -0400

About forty years ago there was indeed a situation in which one generation of veterans had no use for, or understanding of, a later generation. (Not universally true -- MoPH, DAV and similar organizations were quite friendly to Viet-Nam returnees.)

After we (VVA) declared that we weren't going to let that happen again, as far as I have been able to determine, it hasn't.

Perhaps the original author frequents social sites that are much different from the ones I infest. Perhaps I should get out more. Or perhaps not.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 15 at 2015 11:46 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 15 Mar 2015 23:46:51 -0400

I think the author is out of line by inferring the prevalence of alleged abuse against people in pain. The media is largely shameless morons whose only real purpose is to denigrate the military. As I saw the title and introduction, I knew this is a hit piece. This article is baseless and unfortunate and should not be seriously considered as objective or true.

Response by LTC Wayne Dandridge made May 31 at 2018 10:17 AM

LTC Wayne Dandridge — Thu, 31 May 2018 10:17:19 -0400

What is really ashamed is 14 of those 22 have not asked the VA for help. We still have a big job educating Veterans on their VA Medical and other benefits and encouraging them to take advantage of the best medical system in the USA.

Response by SSG Tom Pike made May 31 at 2018 10:25 AM

SSG Tom Pike — Thu, 31 May 2018 10:25:20 -0400

I guess I just hang out on different veterans forums. I don't see the stuff the author is talking about.

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Aug 13 at 2018 9:59 AM

CPT Lawrence Cable — Mon, 13 Aug 2018 09:59:07 -0400

Cable gets on his soapbox.
First of all, I don't believe even the people dealing with the issue fully understand even the who, let alone the why, but I have never seen any evidence that someone committed suicide because they were upset about some trash talk. If you look at the statistics, and the veteran suicides seem to follow the national statistics, the big jump in the number of Suicides are in the 45-65 age group males and the "causes" can range for alcoholism/addictions, mental illness or chronic illness, etc. I would suspect that changes in the family/community support structure may have a lot to do with the increase, but that's a huge area of effects to study.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2019 12:50 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 11 Feb 2019 00:50:52 -0500

The author's claim that the Veteran community "Encourage more of it" (Veteran suicide). Specifically, the author attributes it to Veterans lack of civility on social media. This is causal fallacy, and it is not supported by any study I've been able to find.
While the author's personal experience on Havok Journal and other unnamed sites may include Veterans making statements encouraging another to kill themselves, no evidence is provided to show that such comments on Veteran-centric sites have resulted in any Veteran committing suicide after such a post. Further, at least one example wasn't actively encouraging a specific person to commit suicide
Rather, it was an invitation for anyone who disagreed with the comment in this post to "suck start an M4 ASAP." Crude, but hardly legitimately encouraging someone to commit suicide.
It seems that site administrators may need to actively ban people and delete such posts. In fact, although I don't write computer code, there may exist a capability to scan posts and tag them for review when certain words or phrases are used (i.e., suck on an M4, kill yourself, you should commit suicide).
Veterans have done plenty to support other Veterans, including Veterans working with, and starting, Veteran Service Organizations.