Posted on Nov 14, 2016
Is there an AR that explains the chain of command in the instance of a detachment when subordinates outrank the commander?
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Chain of Command
Detachment Commander
Army Regulations
Posted 8 y ago
Responses: 63
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A BG, a SFC, and a corporal are standing at a gate in Afghanistan. Who is the highest ranking man there? Answer: Whoever is in charge of the gate.
I've seen a number of high ranking individuals learn this the hard way.
I've seen a number of high ranking individuals learn this the hard way.
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MCPO Brett Thompson
SPC (Join to see) - An incident that comes to mind was the following about then Vice Admiral Naughton who was busted to Rear Admiral. By the way, I served with this guy and he was a complete ass:
From Wikipedia: "Naughton’s last assignment in the Navy was as Superintendent of the United States Naval Academy, an organization of over 4,000 midshipmen and 3,000 support staff with an annual budget responsibility of $220 million. During this time, he developed plans and policies to improve the skills and commitment of the future leadership of the naval service by introducing technical training solutions that reduced cost and improved quality which have become the benchmark for the Navy systems commands and staff. He was relieved of duty after assaulting an enlisted Marine gate guard returning to the Academy following a New Year's Eve party in his first year. Though a Vice Admiral at the time, he was reprimanded and retired at the lower rank of Rear Admiral (Upper Half).
From Wikipedia: "Naughton’s last assignment in the Navy was as Superintendent of the United States Naval Academy, an organization of over 4,000 midshipmen and 3,000 support staff with an annual budget responsibility of $220 million. During this time, he developed plans and policies to improve the skills and commitment of the future leadership of the naval service by introducing technical training solutions that reduced cost and improved quality which have become the benchmark for the Navy systems commands and staff. He was relieved of duty after assaulting an enlisted Marine gate guard returning to the Academy following a New Year's Eve party in his first year. Though a Vice Admiral at the time, he was reprimanded and retired at the lower rank of Rear Admiral (Upper Half).
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SPC Michael Ogburn
This is funny. Because I was pulling guard on a hot range on day, and had to deny access to a Lt General. He was respect tail, and didn't argue, waited 30 mins before leaving... 2 minutes after he left I was authorized by the range control to let him on...
Same range 2 days later a soldier was standing against a hot wall and was shot in the shoulder. This particular range was no joke, and fire could come frome anywhere.
Same range 2 days later a soldier was standing against a hot wall and was shot in the shoulder. This particular range was no joke, and fire could come frome anywhere.
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Never seen such a regulation, but authority derives not just from rank but position of athority.
A CPT, commander of HHBN, has many in his command that outrank him, from MAJ to 3 star General...And he can "Order" them to submit to an APFT, EO briefing, UA, ect.
A CPT, commander of HHBN, has many in his command that outrank him, from MAJ to 3 star General...And he can "Order" them to submit to an APFT, EO briefing, UA, ect.
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SGT Mark Sprague
Tactical context is important - during the Vietnam a war a commander of a SOG team could be an SFC (12 years of experience) where the 4th member of the team could be a 2nd Lt. who has almost no experience. No way that that Lt. would be given the command based upon his rank. Rank did not matter much when inserted - only experience.
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MCPO John Babcock
When I was a Chief Prtty Officer on USS Defender (MCM-2), I was a qualified OOD Underway. The XO decided to assign my division officer (an Ltjg) as my JOOD (he had not yet qualified as an OOD). That caused several problems during our first watch together. I didn't let it go far but my DivO wasn't too pleased to have to ask my permission to make any course changes.
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Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen
CSM Thomas McGarry - While not Army, this also frequently happens in the Air Force with aircrews. There are frequently crewmembers who outrank the actual aircraft commander, but he/she is in command of that crew at all times, regardless of rank.
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SMSgt Lawrence McCarter
Also with USAF Security Forces, (Military Police) They in the discharge of their duties can give a lawful order to anyone and if it isn't obeyed that person without regard to rank can be subject court martial or other administrative action. I have seen both Officers and NCOs who learned that the hard way. That Security Forces member represents the authority of the Installation Commander. This is a case of don't confuse Your rank with My authority.
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I have not personally seen any regulations but I have seen several cases where position and experience trumped rank.
One was at a language school. We had a full colonel that was a student alongside every rank and military branch you could think of. In his own words, he said he was just a student and had no command authority over the instructors, regardless of rank.
Another example again dealt with students of many various ranks at a course that was preparing troops for deployment to, at that time, a still hostile Sarajevo and surrounding areas. There was an officer that disagreed with an NCO instructor over an issue and he threw his rank into it. The school's commander took his instructor's side of the issue due to job position over rank.
I have more experiences but the last example I will show dealt with me directly while on a deployment:
When a subordinate tosses around their rank to rule over someone in higher position of authority, it causes countless problems for everyone, not just for the leader.
While in Bosnia with NATO, I was put in charge of the team because I was the most experienced in the job. I was an E-4 at the time and everyone on the team outranked me (A USAF E-6, E-5, and a German Army E-5 equivalent).
The E-5's both accepted it but the E-6 resented it and butted heads with me a lot. He often prevented work from being done just to prove he could and threw his rank and service time in my face constantly. The detachment commander (a Dutch O-2) told me since he outranked me, his hands were tied. He'd refused to fix it.
At every turn, this E-6 defied me on anything job related, garnering complaints from the people we were supporting. Mind you, this was a real world deployment, not a training exercise.
Even several client officers and senior NCO's filed complaints because vital work wasn't getting done, but our detachment commander was still reluctant. Eventually, the E-6 was sent home early after too many complaints were leveled.
As soon as he was gone, I resumed work with just the 2 E-5's and had one officer actually quote that we got more done in the 2 weeks since he'd been gone than we had in the past 4 months. The detachment commander also had to explain to our "higher ups" why he'd allowed it to carry on for so long and jeopardize the mission.
One was at a language school. We had a full colonel that was a student alongside every rank and military branch you could think of. In his own words, he said he was just a student and had no command authority over the instructors, regardless of rank.
Another example again dealt with students of many various ranks at a course that was preparing troops for deployment to, at that time, a still hostile Sarajevo and surrounding areas. There was an officer that disagreed with an NCO instructor over an issue and he threw his rank into it. The school's commander took his instructor's side of the issue due to job position over rank.
I have more experiences but the last example I will show dealt with me directly while on a deployment:
When a subordinate tosses around their rank to rule over someone in higher position of authority, it causes countless problems for everyone, not just for the leader.
While in Bosnia with NATO, I was put in charge of the team because I was the most experienced in the job. I was an E-4 at the time and everyone on the team outranked me (A USAF E-6, E-5, and a German Army E-5 equivalent).
The E-5's both accepted it but the E-6 resented it and butted heads with me a lot. He often prevented work from being done just to prove he could and threw his rank and service time in my face constantly. The detachment commander (a Dutch O-2) told me since he outranked me, his hands were tied. He'd refused to fix it.
At every turn, this E-6 defied me on anything job related, garnering complaints from the people we were supporting. Mind you, this was a real world deployment, not a training exercise.
Even several client officers and senior NCO's filed complaints because vital work wasn't getting done, but our detachment commander was still reluctant. Eventually, the E-6 was sent home early after too many complaints were leveled.
As soon as he was gone, I resumed work with just the 2 E-5's and had one officer actually quote that we got more done in the 2 weeks since he'd been gone than we had in the past 4 months. The detachment commander also had to explain to our "higher ups" why he'd allowed it to carry on for so long and jeopardize the mission.
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CW4 Donald O'Connor
CW4 (Join to see) - As a retired CW4 I agree, however you did not explain the detail of the confrontation. I as a W4 would hopefully have not put the E4 in a position which would have required him to call at ease.
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CW4 (Join to see)
You are correct CW4 Donald O'Connor, I dI'd not give the scenario. He was giving a class and the W4 was a sidebar conversation with the Battalion Commander. regardless of the scenario enlisted Soldier never has the authority to tell an officer to shut his mouth nor does an officer have the authority to tell a senior officer to shut his mouth that is when you politely ask them to remove themselves from the classroom so you can continue. Both would be disrespectful and discourteous. And I do agree that sometimes puts the enlisted soldier at a disadvantage but it's the military.
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SGT Stuart Griffin
CW4 (Join to see) - I completely agree. Disrespect has never been acceptable in my way of thinking. The case I showed where the officer disagreed with the NCO instructor, the NCO did the right thing by involving his commander because of the rank difference. He actually handled it properly.
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