Posted on Nov 15, 2015
How can I correct a female subordinate wearing questionable civilian clothes during TDY travel?
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I've run into a bit of an issue and can use some words of wisdom. I have a subordinate who is 30 years younger than I am, and the opposite sex.
We travel to TDYs on public transportation. I understand that even travel to a TDY is still atime to dress appropriately if civilian clothes are authorized. In my subordinate's case, the pants are always too tight and the tops are too low cut. Maybe I am just old fashioned, but professional appearance means alot on official business travel. In this era of heightened emphasis on EO and SHARP, I do not want to do the wrong thing or say something that could be taken the wrong way. I want to see more professional or conservative clothing choices during TDY travel. Together we represent a team. I asked a supervisor of mine what the best course of action is and was told that I should not be the one to address it. But how should I proceed then? The last thing I want is to be falsely accused of harassing. Any ideas?
We travel to TDYs on public transportation. I understand that even travel to a TDY is still atime to dress appropriately if civilian clothes are authorized. In my subordinate's case, the pants are always too tight and the tops are too low cut. Maybe I am just old fashioned, but professional appearance means alot on official business travel. In this era of heightened emphasis on EO and SHARP, I do not want to do the wrong thing or say something that could be taken the wrong way. I want to see more professional or conservative clothing choices during TDY travel. Together we represent a team. I asked a supervisor of mine what the best course of action is and was told that I should not be the one to address it. But how should I proceed then? The last thing I want is to be falsely accused of harassing. Any ideas?
Uniforms
TDY
Etiquette
SHARP
EO
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 802
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Going to have to be a contrarian here. What I see is an attractive young woman dressed in contemporary fashion. Absolutely nothing to tie her to the military. If we use the same measure for male and female, there would be an uproar. IMO, unless there is something in the UJCMJ that defines civilian dress, leave it alone. BTW, if that is actually her picture, I'm not so sure she doesn't have a legitimate complaint.
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PO1 Joseph Glennon
Master Chief, I originally voted your response down, but changed it when the OP stated that was not his servicemember.
My reason for voting it down was the pictured female's jeans. "Back in my day," our sailors were not allowed to leave the quarterdeck looking like they grabbed their civvies from a rag bag. And those "jeans" pictured certainly *are* deserving to be tossed in a rag bag.
I think that the Navy's gone way too lax, if a Master Chief says "hey, that's fine." I can almost picture the leer. No disrespect intended.
My reason for voting it down was the pictured female's jeans. "Back in my day," our sailors were not allowed to leave the quarterdeck looking like they grabbed their civvies from a rag bag. And those "jeans" pictured certainly *are* deserving to be tossed in a rag bag.
I think that the Navy's gone way too lax, if a Master Chief says "hey, that's fine." I can almost picture the leer. No disrespect intended.
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PO1 Joseph Glennon
SFC Cynthia Eyer - The OP posted that it's a generic picture. That *usually* means that it was a royalty-free, stock photo that he pulled from a search engine when grabbing an illustration for his post.
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PO3 Ted G
Sgt Bob Corridan - Did I say her plane would land at a base? No I did not. Long distance travel can be dicey sometimes, cars breakdown, people get sick, accidents happen. I have had to stop at bases to make repairs to my car, get food, get a haircut, get emergency medical care, and other things. I had a friend that got hit with a baseball bat during a mugging while on leave who had to be taken to the hospital at West Point for surgery. The point is, if you are on active duty the rule should be that if you can't wear it on base you should not be wearing it off base because you never know when you might find yourself on base unexpectedly.
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Do you have a senior female ENL in your organization? You might want to broach it with her and let her take a look. Good female leaders don't like junior females trashing up what they worked so hard to achieve image wise. She'll have a good idea where the junior member fits on the "OK Scale". If not OK, don't be surprised if she wants to deal with it. I had a great female Senior Chief that I'd turn loose on the command. Seems all the questionable issues evaporated within a few weeks. I knew she was done by the wink I got when I asked if everything was shipshape. I didn't ever want to know the details. Funny thing. The junior females were more proud of themselves as a result. Let's just say they were more dressed for success.
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SPC (Join to see)
CAPT Ball,
Did a complaint from any female sailor ever make its way up to you to handle? If so, what happened?
John
Did a complaint from any female sailor ever make its way up to you to handle? If so, what happened?
John
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CAPT Kevin B.
SPC (Join to see) - No, a pretty strong no tolerance polity as my NCO community could make people suffer. Sidebar story. My DKCS (female SEL) approached me to ask if the female SMs could wear gown/dresses for the Seabee Ball. Sure, knock yourself out. Turns out the demure, tiny EA-2 who was Picasso on Ma Deuce shows up DDG (drop dead gorgeous) in this slim blue halter (most who wear them shouldn't, but Laurie could) and the young bucks didn't know what to make of it. So the SEL and I told her the story would be she's the sister, Laurie is sick. The bucks were conflicted as they didn't want to hit on the sister and risk Laurie's vengence. The Ball ended with several of my male Seabees and other ratings perplexed. Flash forward to the Sandbox. All hands to your pits. Radio chatter "Is Laurie manning Ma Deuce"? Laurie just said "I am and do I need to wear my blue dress to prove it"? No more radio chatter. We were about 15 years into female integration. Worked out mostly well; some of it in spite of. I was there for all of it.
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Sir, please do not have a female NCO or officer address your soldier. While it may seem you are protecting yourself from a potential harassment case, if you trust her enough to go on TDY alone with her, then I can almost guarantee you can trust her to have a professional conversation about proper civilian attire. Besides, a female NCO can be just as guilty of harassment as a male.
I think TSgt Hunter Logan's response is the best course of action.
I think TSgt Hunter Logan's response is the best course of action.
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SPC Jared Robbins
SPC (Join to see) if I had no choice but to go on TDY with a female subordinate, yes I would as I don’t have a choice in that. However, my wife would know about that.
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CPT Blake Harrah
Sorry, No. That’s not the way it works in the SHARP and EO world. If a female is making a complaint about a male it is “guilty until proven innocent.” It can be said that is not the way it is by anyone but that is the truth. All it takes is slightest whisper to anyone in the restricted or unrestricted list for everything to cease for the accused (rank, orders, assignments, etc). The best way and sadly the most logical way is to shut your mouth and address your concerns with your first line supervisor.
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SGT Krisandra Daniels
Under stand-ably, this posting started sometime ago. The true "Question" is what does the TDY orders say and what do the regulation say about is appropriate attire for women and for men.
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